Yet another topic about homosexuality, BUT something interesting to watch instead (dogma, Moses)

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Eusebius
The Bible is very accurate as to the nature of humanity and needs no scientific data on that.

IIDM: Which starts with a myth (a serpent talk to a woman and that screwed up humanity)

Which starts with the truth as to Who created this world.

You can't just glibly make the statement as given above and say "the Bible is one of the last places to look to as an auth[or]ity o[n] the subject." That is like saying, The Bible has nothing to say on the mating cycles of the African mosquito so how could it know anything about God and man and what the natural inclinations of man should be?

IIDM: Saying that homosexuality is AGAINST nature based on the bible shows the shortcomings of the bible on being an authority n the subject, because it if the bible writers knew better, they would have known that same sex behavior can be found up and own nature. I'm sure you will attribute that to some "fallen nature" as opposed to something that is 'natural' for some people whether you agree with their disposition or not.

Not really. It is an authority on the subject since it pronounces authoritatively that homosexuality is wrong. Umm, if you look at history and archeology, you might find the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are hard to find these days due to being destroyed for their sodomizing ways. Most likely God had to contain the spread of disease from infecting the rest of the world by destroying them. That sounds pretty authoritative to me.

You have to prove their views were biased. You can't just say they were.

IIDM: I can easily prove this (trust me, I am not some novice when it comes to the bible) but that is for another thread.

I'm waiting.

Just think about it for a second. What is the male thing for besides urinating? What is the woman's female vagina for besides urinating and having periods? The male thing is for the female thing. That is the natural use of both. It is unnatural to put the male penis into the anus of another male. There is no possibility of reproduction in the latter. It is un-natural. The membrane inside the anus is so thin and lacking the ability to fight infections that it is the perfect place in which to start sexually transmitted disease.

IIDM: I don't entirely disagree with you here, Eusebius, but before I explain something, let me mention something else first. In the video, one lady pointed out something that is indeed interesting and I (a heterosexual man) am guilty of this. Why is it that we ALWAYS think about what homosexuals do in bed when we start thinking about them?

I try not to think about what homosexuals do in bed. There is only so much two men can do and everyone knows the shameful acts they do.

IIDM: Anyway I have been stressing that nature is diverse. Even if I don't understand it all, I can SEE it is diverse. You can see the differences between siblings. The differences can be in physical features or even emotionally. When you think of the many things that MUST happen over a 9-month period with a womb, it is not surprising to me that slight changes can result in a "this" or "that" child. It is NOT surprising to me that a child can be born physically looking like a boy yet nature gives him a female brain. The same can be said about a girl at birth with a male brain and everything in between. Nature deals all kinds of other surprised that are "out of the norm" (to you and I).

Can you prove nature gives boys female brains and females are given male brains?

Think about it, there has to be a "perfect" balance of countless things over 9 months within a womb to bring about a "perfect" child, but things can go wrong OR nature can decide to do one thing over another and as far at nature is concerned, the final product is okay - just different. We, the observers are the ones who make the distinctions and discriminations accordingly. We bring the hate because "it" doesn't look like us, sound like us or act like us.

You might have something. After all, in Romans 1 it says that the
"Rom 1:24 Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,"

It is possible that the lusts of their hearts were already there and that God gives them over to that pre-disposition of dishonoring their bodies among themselves, men with men and women with women.

The world view the Jews lived in what that the Greeks were largely homosexually inclined in the day the new testament was written.

IIDM: And because the Jews had a problem with that I should make it my business for it to my problem too?

It is quite possible the Jews would have gone along with the crowd but due to God telling them not do engage in such dishonorable acts they didn't. So you could say that God is biased, not the Jews.

Had your mom and dad been gay they would have seen no need to marry each other and would have partnered with their own lesbo and gay partners and hence, you'd never have seen the light of day. You'd have been squirted up where the sun don't shine and said "Oh crap!" and been right for once.

IIDM: There you go again with the visuals. Why do WE (me included) ALWAYS go there and show that our minds are often in the gutter and the gutter only when we think of homosexual couples? When I see Jack walking down the street wit Jill, I rarely think of what they do in bed, but when it comes to Jack and Mack WE do. Why is that?

Because it is well known that that is what they do! And if our minds automatically know it is in the gutter to do such things then our conscience is telling us it is wrong to do such things.

IIDM: Anyway why would I concern myself with what I think about the matter if I was not born? That's like me being dead and finding fault with who my son marries.

You wouldn't concern yourself with it if you never were born. That is not the issue. The issue is that you were born because your parents were not given over to dishonoring their bodies as homos and lesbos. You can look back and see you would never have been born had they gone down that path.

[InsaneInDaMembrane]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Which starts with the truth as to Who created this world.

We differ here, clearly.

Not really. It is an authority on the subject since it pronounces authoritatively that homosexuality is wrong.

EXACTLY! You prove EXACTLY what the man said in the video. Literalists (like you) use to Bible to make ultimate pronouncements leaving NO room for discussion, analysis, reconsiderations.

Let me remind you (as the video reminded me), the Jews, a small entity, were VERY PRO-reproducing. It ensured their future existence through their posterity. Homosexuality, while a part of nature, was frowned on because it THREATENED the process. How do we know? Their writings exhorts men to "be fruitful and multiply."

Two other stories used to enforce this theme (that literalist Christians never care to mention) was the story of Onan and the law requiring single brothers to marry their brother's childless widows and have children with them. Why do you think the Jews would tell a story of a man who is killed "by god" because he refused to impregnate his widowed sister-in- law? Today we would praise the guy (if he nor she wants a child), but why was it discouraged in that time? Here were see that the storytellers wanted to use FEAR to make sure the community kept true to the mechanics/customs that ensure childbearing. Do we REALLY believe god used to kill people for spilling sperm on a ground? This is akin to the old STRICT Catholic prohibition on birth control to the peril of many. And why aren't Christians decrying this type of common practice ("pulling out") as an affront to god? Is god still angry at men for doing this and where did he stop the custom of requiring single men to marry their brother's childless widow to have children in the dead brother's name? Why aren't Christians STILL obeying the bible on this matter?

Umm, if you look at history and archeology, you might find the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are hard to find these days due to being destroyed for their sodomizing ways.

Eusebius, you really think that was THE issue. Grab a bible and read Ezekiel 16:49 and beyond and you will see the OTHER sins of Sodom that you seem to overlook. I know for sure many Christians back in my day in the church seems to have not have even known such a passage existed.

Most likely God had to contain the spread of disease from infecting the rest of the world by destroying them. That sounds pretty authoritative to me.

So homosexuality was only going on in Sodom and Gomorrah I take it? The Greeks are still VERY much here with us.

I'm waiting.

Wait on. If I started such a topic in this forum, it would grow cobwebs because I'm the big, bad, evil unbeliever believers are not to pay attention to and Christians might only peep next door but fear speaking up because many fear being made to look silly.

I try not to think about what homosexuals do in bed.

Well just don't. How about that. lol

There is only so much two men can do and everyone knows the shameful acts they do.

What about two women? why do we ALWAYS forget about them when talking about gays? In fact, I'm not even sure you have addressed them yet even in your example of 'what is natural' a few pots back.

That being said, 2 men or 2 women can love each other, be best friends, be productive citizens, raise great children (my girlfriend's mother is gay and ALWAYS was, but succumbed to marriage pressure way back when to avid persecution) and be the greatest of neighbors. They are far MORE than just sex but we can't seem to get past that, can we?

Can you prove nature gives boys female brains and females are given male brains?

I can prove it as easy as I can OBSERVE that nature can give a little girl 8 limbs or give a 5 year old the natural ability to start playing a piano OR give a child a rare condition where they look like a 70 year old when they are just 10? These thing are NOT normal to what WE consider the standard, but nature spins out such people even if they are NOT the majority, right? I am sure you and I can come up with a long list of conditions that we can observe where nature dealt someone else another deck of cards. Are we supposed to hate them, condemn them, throw verses after them just because they are NOT like us? Hey, it was just a few relatively short years ago when people thought that something was wrong with left handed kids and used to kill them or put them through hell because they thought they were of the devil.

You might have something. After all, in Romans 1 it says that the
"Rom 1:24 Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,"

The writer seems to have known what god was thinking very well. Must have been nice.

It is possible that the lusts of their hearts were already there and that God gives them over to that pre-disposition of dishonoring their bodies among themselves, men with men and women with women.

Eusebius, you're really grasping here, man. Come on, I know you can do better than speculate away into silly wishful thinking my friend.





It is quite possible the Jews would have gone along with the crowd but due to God telling them not do engage in such dishonorable acts they didn't. So you could say that God is biased, not the Jews.







Because it is well known that that is what they do! And if our minds automatically know it is in the gutter to do such things then our conscience is telling us it is wrong to do such things.



You wouldn't concern yourself with it if you never were born. That is not the issue. The issue is that you were born because your parents were not given over to dishonoring their bodies as homos and lesbos. You can look back and see you would never have been born had they gone down that path.[/quote]

[Sizzly Friddle]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

You wouldn't concern yourself with it if you never were born. That is not the issue. The issue is that you were born because your parents were not given over to dishonoring their bodies as homos and lesbos. You can look back and see you would never have been born had they gone down that path.

You keep repeating this incredibly offensive statement. As if homos and lesbos can't have children. And yet, here I am! And I have 2 brothers.
Plenty of gays have children and raise families.

There is nothing dishonorable about being the person your god created them to be.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Sizzly Friddle

You keep repeating this incredibly offensive statement. As if homos and lesbos can't have children. And yet, here I am! And I have 2 brothers.
Plenty of gays have children and raise families.

There is nothing dishonorable about being the person your god created them to be.

Dear Sizzly, two men in a bed cannot produce children.
Two women in a bed cannot produce children.

If that offends you, I'm not sorry.

I agree that there is nothing dishonorable that God created us humans.
The dishonorable part is when two men get it on with each other and two women get it on with each other. Just because you might find it honorable does not mean it is. You conscious can be cauterized.

Sorry but it just ain't natural.

[InsaneInDaMembrane]

Eusebius, I jut realized I did not see these additional comments by you. I'll reply to them now:

It is quite possible the Jews would have gone along with the crowd but due to God telling them not do engage in such dishonorable acts they didn't. So you could say that God is biased, not the Jews.

See my previous comments about why the Jews [probably] frowned on homosexuality. It threatened posterity. I think it would be very silly of us to think there were NO homosexual Jews who did not engage in homosexual relationships in secret much in the same way that there are not homosexuals in Muslim countries no matter their laws. Laws and religious rules can threaten all they want, however, such people will ALWAYS be with us. The fact is, this has nothing to do with "god." It has everything to do with our innate desire to procreate and our innate fear of ceasing to exist. As a result, anything threatening that order is labeled and ran out of town.

Because it is well known that that is what they do! And if our minds automatically know it is in the gutter to do such things then our conscience is telling us it is wrong to do such things.

It is also well known what heterosexuals do too, but are we obsessing about what Bill and Suzie does in their bedroom? Are we obsessing about a black guy having sex with a white girl? Are obsessing about what it must be like for that 7 foot guy over there to have sex with that 5 foot woman? If we are, then who has the issues?

You wouldn't concern yourself with it if you never were born. That is not the issue. The issue is that you were born because your parents were not given over to dishonoring their bodies as homos and lesbos. You can look back and see you would never have been born had they gone down that path.

Am I the only person lost here?

[InsaneInDaMembrane]

Eusebius, let's get to the bottom of this which is what often threatens a great amount of Christians when it comes to this. In their world, the WHOLE idea of god is threatened and that is too traumatic to think about. Here's why.

To the fundamentalist, god is perfect and does no wrong. According to their interpretation of the bible, god despises homosexuality to the point where he ordered the deaths of such people (because he loves them???). The idea that homosexuals are born that way is out of the question because if god condemns homosexuality, why would he create them only to condemn them? That question is too disturbing and leads to some troubling conclusions so condemnation "in the name of god" is the way to go because god would come off as heartless and wicked if the OTHER possibility has to be considered. This rules out ANY possibility that people could be born gay. It has to be that they CHOOSE to be that way so that their "blood" rests on their shoulders.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Sizzly Friddle

You keep repeating this incredibly offensive statement. As if homos and lesbos can't have children. And yet, here I am! And I have 2 brothers.
Plenty of gays have children and raise families.

There is nothing dishonorable about being the person your god created them to be.

Did youhave them naturally?...Homosexuality is still a sin just like any other sin...Do you really think my flesh wants to stop whoring around just because i am a christian?.. No, but i know from scripture it is wrong and by refraining from it after a while it becomes a habit then a disdainment from such a lifestyle...

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane

We differ here, clearly.



EXACTLY! You prove EXACTLY what the man said in the video. Literalists (like you) use to Bible to make ultimate pronouncements leaving NO room for discussion, analysis, reconsiderations.

Well if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything.

Let me remind you (as the video reminded me), the Jews, a small entity, were VERY PRO-reproducing. It ensured their future existence through their posterity. Homosexuality, while a part of nature, was frowned on because it THREATENED the process. How do we know? Their writings exhorts men to "be fruitful and multiply."

"Homosexuality, while a part of nature"? LOL! Little green men (or grey?) come to earth a implant their sperm in our women too! LOL!
You do not have any proof that the Jews got together, sat down, and told Moses what to write in the Law so that they would keep their numbers up. Rather, God gave the Law to Moses and told the Jews what would be.

Two other stories used to enforce this theme (that literalist Christians never care to mention) was the story of Onan and the law requiring single brothers to marry their brother's childless widows and have children with them. Why do you think the Jews would tell a story of a man who is killed "by god" because he refused to impregnate his widowed sister-in- law?

Today we would praise the guy (if he nor she wants a child), but why was it discouraged in that time? Here were see that the storytellers wanted to use FEAR to make sure the community kept true to the mechanics/customs that ensure childbearing. Do we REALLY believe god used to kill people for spilling sperm on a ground? This is akin to the old STRICT Catholic prohibition on birth control to the peril of many. And why aren't Christians decrying this type of common practice ("pulling out") as an affront to god? Is god still angry at men for doing this and where did he stop the custom of requiring single men to marry their brother's childless widow to have children in the dead brother's name? Why aren't Christians STILL obeying the bible on this matter?

It shows how little you know about the kinsman redeemer in Israel as it relates to Onan. If the brother of someone's wife died, the near kin could raise up seed for that woman and the children would be the deceased man's children so that they (the deceased one) would not lose their allotment in the land and the deceased man's name would be carried on. What Onan did was violate that and spilled his seed on the ground because the children would not be his. God didn't kill him just because he spilled his seed on the ground. Onan didn't want to foot the bill for raising his deceased brother's children and his wife! And so that line died out all because Onan was too selfish. You try to put all the blame on God. You are rather immature and dispicable in that department when you go accusing God of things you know nothing about.

Eusebius, you really think that was THE issue. Grab a bible and read Ezekiel 16:49 and beyond and you will see the OTHER sins of Sodom that you seem to overlook. I know for sure many Christians back in my day in the church seems to have not have even known such a passage existed.

Typical. You didn't quote Ezekiel 16:50. Here's more:

Jud 1:7 "As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

So homosexuality was only going on in Sodom and Gomorrah I take it? The Greeks are still VERY much here with us. I'm waiting

Rome was destroyed many years ago. Don't you remember reading about Rome being destroyed?

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed yet we still have people living in the country those cities were destroyed in.

Wait on. If I started such a topic in this forum, it would grow cobwebs because I'm the big, bad, evil unbeliever believers are not to pay attention to and Christians might only peep next door but fear speaking up because many fear being made to look silly.

I never thought of you as being big and bad. I do think though that you are sadly mistaken and have been duped by the homosexuals who all want our pity.

Well just don't. How about that. lol

O.K.

What about two women? why do we ALWAYS forget about them when talking about gays? In fact, I'm not even sure you have addressed them yet even in your example of 'what is natural' a few pots back.

Of course I did. Women with women is what I said and men with men.

That being said, 2 men or 2 women can love each other, be best friends, be productive citizens, raise great children (my girlfriend's mother is gay and ALWAYS was, but succumbed to marriage pressure way back when to avid persecution) and be the greatest of neighbors. They are far MORE than just sex but we can't seem to get past that, can we?

No one is against men being best friends with other men or women being best friends with other women. No one is against them being great citizens. I happen to love Freddie Mercury's singing (too bad he died of AIDS due to his homosexual activity) and love Elton John's singing.

I can prove it as easy as I can OBSERVE that nature can give a little girl 8 limbs or give a 5 year old the natural ability to start playing a piano OR give a child a rare condition where they look like a 70 year old when they are just 10? These thing are NOT normal to what WE consider the standard, but nature spins out such people even if they are NOT the majority, right? I am sure you and I can come up with a long list of conditions that we can observe where nature dealt someone else another deck of cards. Are we supposed to hate them, condemn them, throw verses after them just because they are NOT like us? Hey, it was just a few relatively short years ago when people thought that something was wrong with left handed kids and used to kill them or put them through hell because they thought they were of the devil.

Just because nature can give a little girl 8 limbs etc. does not prove that nature gives boys a girl's brain and a girl a boy's brain.

The writer seems to have known what god was thinking very well. Must have been nice.

It is nice.

Eusebius wrote:
Rom 1:24 "Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves," so It is possible that the lusts of their hearts were already there and that God gives them over to that pre-disposition of dishonoring their bodies among themselves, men with men and women with women.

Eusebius, you're really grasping here, man. Come on, I know you can do better than speculate away into silly wishful thinking my friend.

I don't see a grasping. The lusts of their hearts was there first and God gave them over to those lusts to teach them a valuable lesson.

[InsaneInDaMembrane]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

There are so many ignorant uneducated people here that it boggles the mind...

Yes, you are INDEED correct on that.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane

Eusebius, let's get to the bottom of this which i what often threatens a great amount of Christians when it comes to this. In their world, the WHOLE idea of god is threatened and that is too traumatic to think about. Here's why.

To the fundamentalist, god is perfect and does no wrong. According to their interpretation of the bible, god despises homosexuality to the point where he ordered the deaths of such people (because he loves them???). The idea that homosexuals are born that way is out of the question because if god condemns homosexuality, why would he create them only to condemn them? That question is too disturbing and leads to some troubling conclusions so condemnation "in the name of god" is the way to go because god would be come off as heartless and wicked if the OTHER possibility has to be considered. This rules out ANY possibility that people could be born gay. It has to be that they CHOOSE to be that way so that their "blood" rests on their shoulders.

They do choose it...At one time in my life i chose to be a whoremonger...but now i am not...if i were born to be a whoremonger...i would still be a whoremonger...your logic is flawed...we are born sinners and we are susceptable to certain sins...it is just the way it is...some are susceptable to homosexuality, some to thievery, some to fornication, etc.,...just because we are born prone to these does not make them right...for years i thought i was right and there was nothing wrong with being a whoremonger (stud)...but, when i became a Christian and read the Bible i knew it was wrong...i still struggled with it for many years...I still get tempted, but i reject that temptation...Go ahead and believe your misguided ideology and see where it takes you...