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What I believe is the NT has layers -- pointing to and talking about the physical destruction of Jerusalem and winding up the Old Covenant and also about the new covenant for all - Jew and gentile.
I agree that the physical application is the physical enemies (apostate Jews) physically destroyed in 70 AD
and I am also starting to see a spiritual application where Jesus will reign in very individual until he hands that person over to God after judgment/death, baptised into his death, and overcoming --- if you accept him in this life and live for him you are not hurt of the second death.
i know you do not want to go past what happens in this life but for many life is cruel and for many there has not been a chance to experience goodness or God or Christ, and if it is only about this life, then for them there is no justice.
Yes I agree but as far as speculating about the afterlife, I simply cannot as I don't have any proof of anything beyond this life. However, I will agree that for some there is no justice in this life. I just prefer not to pin down a specific belief about the afterlife. However, I totally see your point.
So in order to HAVE salvation, Christ had to bring it when he came a second time.. so if you await a future coming then you can't possibly HAVE salvation.. now why would Christ promise salvation to that generation yet delay that salvation until after they had been dead for thousands of years?
I've spent the better part of the day thinking about this and I'm still not convinced...Let's look at this one scripture:
1Co 13:12 for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
Are we to understand that all believers (from 70 AD on) fully know all spiritual things? The message boards here would seem to indicate otherwise...lol...so how are we to understand this verse? I think we do have salvation, yes, but not in it's fully realized sense.
This leads to a few other questions: Does Full Preterism teach that all believers are in a full completed state of sanctification and glory? And, does Full Preterism teach that all (if holding to UR) are in a state of spiritual regeneration now based upon the events of 70 AD? If so, this sounds kind of weird....doesn't it?
I've spent the better part of the day thinking about this and I'm still not convinced...Let's look at this one scripture:
1Co 13:12 for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
Are we to understand that all believers (from 70 AD on) fully know all spiritual things? The message boards here would seem to indicate otherwise...lol...so how are we to understand this verse? I think we do have salvation, yes, but not in it's fully realized sense.
This leads to a few other questions: Does Full Preterism teach that all believers are in a full completed state of sanctification and glory? And, does Full Preterism teach that all (if holding to UR) are in a state of spiritual regeneration now based upon the events of 70 AD? If so, this sounds kind of weird....doesn't it?
Alabama,
You ask very valid points. In I Corinthians 15, it is maintained that the "it" that is raised is the same "it" that was sown. If you define the "it" as the physical body, then you get Augustine, which is the traditional view. The problem is that when you apply this to Jesus, it doesn't work. Well, not smoothly anyway. John and Luke go out of their way to state that Jesus had holes, scars, and such in his post-resurrection appearances. It was the same body that was killed and hung on a tree. Augustine argued that the Christian body will be raised free from blemishes. So, what to do with Jesus' body?
Three solutions have been posed. The first is that Jesus' scars were merely "appearances" - kind of like "illusions". The problem here is that the text don't tell us this. This is a theological inference based on the reading of I Corinthians 15: if the physical body is sown with blemishes, it will be raised without any blemishes whatsoever - since Jesus' body had blemishes, it must have been merely "appearances" of those blemishes. They were not "really" there.
The second solution is the "Jesus was an exception" argument. This runs counter to the "we shall be like him" argument, though. How can the "exception" not be "like" the norm for the rest of us? The parallels don't match on a one-to-one correspondance. The Jesus was an exception argument is that the scars were indeed real, and Jesus really was raised "incorruptible" (without blemish), BUT, in His glorified body the Father kept those blemishes (call them, glorified blemishes) for the sake of having a constant reminder of His death when we see him. You have heard or sang the hymns no doubt where, when we get to heaven "and see those nail scarred hands...." But, this, too, is not "in the text" so to speak, and is a theological inference based, again, on the Augustinian reading of I Corinthians 15.
The third solution, rare, (see Charles Hodge), is that Jesus was not "glorified" until His Ascension. Thus, his post-resurrection appearances was really him, really blemished. In this sense, his resurrection is like Lazarus'. Jesus' body was "rescusitated" and then, at His Ascension, "glorified." This is sort of like the Jesus was an exception argument in that it runs counter to what Paul says in I Cor. 15. "It is raised incorruptible". Jesus was "raised" on the third day. But, he was not raised incorruptible! Well, at least for 40 days he wasn't. In Jesus' case, he was "sown" in corruption, he was raised corrupt, but Ascended incorruptible. Get that?
The Preterist solution, which takes into account all of these marvelous arguments from the theological catalogue, is that Jesus was indeed raised incorruptible. Yet, his physical body was merely "rescusitated". "Incorruption" has nothing to do with "unblemished physical bodies" or "getting new bodies". For Paul, "corruption" is another theological term: sin-corruption. Jesus "became sin" (sin offering), and in his resurrection was "incorruptible" (free from the bondage of Sin and Death). It is in this way that we can "count ourselves LIKE" Christ.
Jesus was demonstrating by his resurrection, as he stood in front of his disciples with the SAME body he had in the tomb, what the NATURE of resurrection is: freedom from Sin and Death that came "through the one man" Adam. One does not have to be whisked away from earth. One does not need a "new body" free from blemishes. One needs to be put to death in Christ (sown), and raised with him in "newness of life" (raised). No new bodies needed. Only faith in the Resurrection, Jesus Christ, will do.
Now, church history has seen this perspective, and call it "positional resurrection" or "spiritual resurrection" in that through participation "in Christ" we "have been made alive with Christ". BUT, they ADD that one day, we will "really" and "fully" be "like Christ" with glorified bodies.....but this is precisely what brings us around to the 3 problems-solutions I mentioned above. Preterism sees those problem, and fixes them, but jettisons the "traditional" addition of Augustine as unnecessary. Paul is not talking about "getting new bodies" or "glorified bodies" at all.
Here is the rule: Paul said, we shall be "like" him. Our resurrection is His resurrection. Any view that breaks down this correlation (as the traditional view, and even the Preterist "immortal body at death" view does) is false. In the view advocated above, the correspondence is set perfectly. I am alive here on earth, with blemishes, and in my physical body, YET, AT THE SAME TIME, I am free from Death and Sin, raised in newness of life and have eternal life. I shall not ever see death for "death has NO mastery over me....so, likewise COUNT YOURSELVES the same".
That's the resurrection for us "alive and remaining" and for the "living" here on earth. As justification is imputed, so also resurrection is imputed. We are raised, just like Jesus. His death is our death - his life is our life. Period. When we no longer need our physical bodies, they, like his, simply go the way of the elements of the universe. But WE remain forever as members of His body, fully conscious, fully human, fully alive.
Full Preterism, Corporate Body Resurrection in the Parousia, brings in the completitive nature of full, realized salvation. Because the resurrection has already occurred, followed by the Parousia, the indwelling of fully justified, sanctified, salvific redemption of not only the saints that were resurrected into life eternal with Him, but is also completely regenerative in each person that comes to the faith in Christ, marrying into the Coprorate Body of Christ, which was consummated in the Parousia itself.
I hope that helped clear some things up for you. God bless you in Christ Jesus, our Lord, God and Savior.
I've spent the better part of the day thinking about this and I'm still not convinced...Let's look at this one scripture:
1Co 13:12 for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
Are we to understand that all believers (from 70 AD on) fully know all spiritual things? The message boards here would seem to indicate otherwise...lol...so how are we to understand this verse? I think we do have salvation, yes, but not in it's fully realized sense.
This leads to a few other questions: Does Full Preterism teach that all believers are in a full completed state of sanctification and glory? And, does Full Preterism teach that all (if holding to UR) are in a state of spiritual regeneration now based upon the events of 70 AD? If so, this sounds kind of weird....doesn't it?
In my own experience with believing I can fully attest to the fact that being a believer doesn't guarantee spiritual growth.
Here is the thing and remember that I don't teach full preterism nor UR so I am just giving MY opinion and belief not that of the organizations that teach both of them nor any formal knowledge.
That said: I believe that there are actually many types of salvation humans can take part in here are two that stand out in the Bible:
Salvation from Calamity - as when the Christians fled Jerusalem just in time because they listened to Christ...
Salvation from Sin - as when God sees or doesn't see iniquity.
So when you talk about salvation I wonder if we aren't just using different phrases yet saying the same thing....
Here is the short version of what I believe happened in 70AD...
Jesus died for all sins on the cross. The debt was paid. The only thing left to do was usher in the new covenant by destroying the premise of the old covenant. The premise of the old was work based salvation. The true underlying purpose of the sacrificial system was to wash clean man's conscience so that he could serve the living God. Therefore Jesus died to take away the guilt and "dirty" conscience of man once and for all. Part of that is that God will not remember their sins anymore. This frees men to serve the living God. So what happened in 70AD was the confirmation of the new covenant as well as destroying the sacrificial system which hindered men from serving the living God.
Then came the New Covenant were one may freely take part in the knowledge of God and the benefits that come with that (I count them as beneficial anyway) but we see that not everyone displays the need to live in the knowledge of God and not everyone will grow spiritually but I don't see the need for spiritual growth in salvation. If we can't say that it is our work to be saved but that it is wholly God's work then there is nothing we can do to "complete" salvation, right?
So I believe that Jesus saved Christians from the fate of death at the hands of the Romans by warning them to flee and he also saved others from living a life in darkness carrying the burden of their sin around with them. Jesus took that burden and gave forgiveness for self and others.
Now all CAN serve the living God freely. Do all? Nope and that does nothing (in my mind) to change what already took place.
Now if you are trying to talk about how all this affects the afterlife.. I cannot help you as I have no idea what will be after this life, but I do know that the bible is more about living than after death.
Hope that helped.. if not perhaps I it is because I have not fully gathered my thoughts in this particular way before and I thank you for making me study this perspective further.
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