Full Preterism and Hyper Preterism is contrary to UR completely (myth, Christ)

[python87]

sciotamicks, I have one question for you: do you believe that people are wholly responsible for going to Hell themselves?

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

1 Tim 2:4 has nothing to do with all mankind being saved....again.
God wants them to be saved sure.....as He wants you not to sin!

Correction, it has everything to do with it.

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

1 Timothy 2:4ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

"An active, ongoing result of a previous action."

Although in the third person it is within an active present tense, which is an ongoing result of a previous action, and in the ongoing result of that action, "desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth." Whereas, the action itself is indicative of being real. Nowhere is it subjunctive or that of being contingent, probable, or imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking "that man might" come to this salvation and knowledge. Obviously, you must be prepared to debate the issue this time, otherwise why would you resort to making such statements ....again!

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Correction, 1Timothy 2:4 has everything to do with all mankind being saved.


"An active, ongoing result of a previous action."

Although in the third person it is within an active present tense, which is an ongoing result of a previous action, and in the ongoing result of that action, "desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth." Whereas, the action itself is indicative of being real. Nowhere is it subjunctive or that of being contingent, probable, or imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking "that man might" come to this salvation and knowledge.

Obviously, you must be prepared to debate the issue this time, otherwise why would you resort to making such statements ....again!

THANK YOU JERWADE! I needed that!
Sciota's argument went zoom, right over my head.

BTW Sciota, I believe that faith is the result of salvation, not the cause.
We begin trusting in Jesus for our salvation only because God has laid hold on us by His sovereign grace and made Jesus "choice" in our heart.

Here is why I believe that
FAITH ACCORDS WITH GRACE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 3 - Faith Accords With Grace

[rodgertutt]

This morning, a snippet from Jan Antonsson's weekly talk reads

The thing about this that I missed in my youthful enthusiasm to know God is that being "born again" is a "God job" from first to last! It was neither human will nor human decision that birthed you and me into the kingdom, but God's will alone. His will is eternal, without beginning or end. Since Peter wrote that God is "not willing that ANY should perish, but all should reach repentance" (II Pet. 3:9).

I conclude, as do many others, that this birthing process is not limited to this life. Be it this side of Jordan, or the other side, all Adam's natural sons will eventually become Abraham's spiritual sons by the will of the Father. (end of quote)

The link to the entire talk is at
gods-emphasis

URs ENJOY!!

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by python87

sciotamicks, I have one question for you: do you believe that people are wholly responsible for going to Hell themselves?

If I believed in Hell as per contemporary Christendom, yes. However, I do not...The Second Death is covenantal....Rev 21:8; Jude 1:12...much more scriptural support if you want me to elaborate.

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Correction, it has everything to do with it.


"An active, ongoing result of a previous action."

Although in the third person it is within an active present tense, which is an ongoing result of a previous action, and in the ongoing result of that action, "desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth." Whereas, the action itself is indicative of being real. Nowhere is it subjunctive or that of being contingent, probable, or imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking "that man might" come to this salvation and knowledge. Obviously, you must be prepared to debate the issue this time, otherwise why would you resort to making such statements ....again!

No it doesn't. If you began in 1 Tim 1 and carried through the entire context of the prose, you would see Paul is not exhorting that God will indeed save all men. He is exhorting that God provided Christ so that all men "can" come to His truth. The door is now opne for all. This is very elementary, and hs been ripped apart from out of its theme to support the UR paradigm with another verse for those ill-versed in the overall theme of Scripture...which is Man's responsiblity for his own actions. It starts in Gen 1 and ends in Rev 22. You can analyze the word itself, but without context, you have nothing. Koine is rooted in context.

[python87]

If I believed in Hell as per contemporary Christendom, yes. However, I do not...The Second Death is covenantal....Rev 21:8; Jude 1:12...much more scriptural support if you want me to elaborate.

Okay, is being destroyed entirely their fault, then?

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Man's responsiblity for his own actions.

In his exposition called
CHOICE AND DEITY
James Coram wrote

"Man is never responsible and cannot ever become responsible for any of his actions at any time. The recognition of this fact depends solely upon one’s ability to think sensibly and fairly. It does not depend upon a personal conviction that the Scriptures are the Word of God, much less upon any judgment that our exegesis thereof is correct. Indeed, even if both of these were to be rejected, it would still remain true that man is not responsible and that free will is a foolish myth. Unless we have a secret fondness for myths (at least when it comes to this subject), we will be grateful to see them exposed and disproved."

The entire exposition can be read here
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity

I agree.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Where does it say that?

1 Tm 2:4 is strictly about His desire...not His divine will.



Where does it say that?



His desire here was to send Christ to save Israel....all Israel.
Out of context again I see?

For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

He came to save Israel, the covenant He had made with their fathers.
This includes Gentiles brought from out of the world.

This from the guy who applies the same frame to all of scripture(covenant theology).

Sciotamicks, do you believe that God desires all humans to be saved?

Do you believe that the word of God accomplishes what he desires?


Yes or no to the two questions above ...

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

No it doesn't. If you began in 1 Tim 1 and carried through the entire context of the prose, you would see Paul is not exhorting that God will indeed save all men. He is exhorting that God provided Christ so that all men "can" come to His truth. The door is now open for all. This is very elementary, and has been ripped apart from out of its theme to support the UR paradigm with another verse for those ill-versed in the overall theme of Scripture...which is Man's responsibility for his own actions. It starts in Gen 1 and ends in Rev 22. You can analyze the word itself, but without context, you have nothing. Koine is rooted in context.

I cannot turn aside to a fruitless discussion with someone who would annihilate their own mother and father, or whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.
As it is a "Trustworthy" statement, deserving full acceptance, "that Christ Jesus Christ came into the world to deliver sinners.” (1Timothy 1...)

Apparently you are speaking in prose without even knowing it!

"Who desires all men to be saved, so they can come to the full knowledge of the Truth"
(Paraphrased, with your addition to the Scriptures)

I do love you brother, but sometimes there is sibling rivalry within the family.

"So the last shall be first, and the first last."

[sciotamicks]

Jerwade,

There is no annihilation...just cessation. One cannot have their spirit annihilated if they never had one to begin with......No one is born of the spirit without faith...