Full Preterism and Hyper Preterism is contrary to UR completely (Jehovah, disciples)

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

LOL...never said any of that...you assume way too much Ironmaw...no wonder you are all mixed up....you can't even get someone thoughts right.

Do you not believe and teach that once a person dies, their "opportunity" to be saved by believing in Christ has ended?

So physical death overcomes the work of Christ ...

If i want to make sure that any non-Christian will never be saved,all i have to do is kill them.

You had five chances before you finally decided to be saved, right?

What about a 17 year old girl who was raised in a Hindu family who is raped and killed by a man who then lives to die of old age and asks for forgiveness and believes.

The man ended the girls life and because death is more powerful than the work of Christ she can no longer be saved, but the man who raped her and killed her gets saved.

And you call this justice, just more evidence of the lawlessness of traditional Christianity.

Christ told us to love our enemies.

A question for you......who are at enmity with God, in the context of scripture? You can supply some verses to analyze.

You are evading the point, Christ said we must love our enemies in order to be like our father in heaven. That is the point ... The point is God loves his enemies, and not only desires to saved them, but has always intended on saving them, and death and sin and unbelief cant stop him.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

chiefly - malista

1 Timothy 4:10. Also, Paul's use of μάλιστα is taking sides! He's saying that Jesus is the savior of a specific subset of "all humanity" (πάντων ἀνθρώπων), that is, he's the savior of "believers" (πιστῶν).

No, you are twisting the scriptures, jesus is the savior of all people(all inclusive), but chiefly of believers. All are saved, but those that believe are especially/chiefly/even more so saved.

You seem to develop reading comprehension problems when you are reading most of the new testament. I don't think it has anything to do with your literacy, i think it has to do with you inability to accept reality.


If someone were to say to you, "i love all ice cream, especially chocolate ice cream" ... There is no way you would jump to the conclusion that they did not love other types of ice cream or that they only loved chocolate ice cream. If you did draw that from their statement, i would think that you either completely misunderstood what they said, or that you needed to go back to grammar school.

One word...kosmos...refutes you....He came to disannull the covenant of death.

And as has already been proven, the word Kosmos means "created universe and everything in it" in the philosophical/religious sense of the word, and was used that way in the Greek classics and in the poets and by the philosophers. Again, you simply refuse and or are unable to accept the facts and are apparently delusional to think that it does not.

There is no sin without law.....those in Adam....who had law.

You again seem to be having comprehension problems. It is really simple, because of Adam, everyone is born a sinner, and everyone dies.

That is your interpretation of it when Adam is the first biological man, which he wasn't, and the scriptures support that he wasn't.

I never said Adam was the first biological man.

So no, you are wrong. Not all are made alive. Only those of faith in covenant.

No, you are wrong, all will be made alive in Christ.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Two very different tenses of the verb unrelated in their forms....but alas, you didn't now that did you?

The action of verbs in their tenses, relate to the time and kind of action, as in past (have), present (is), future (will).
And let us not forget to analyze the voice, mood, person, or the number of ALL.

"Who will have all men be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

"I will do all my pleasure" Isaiah 46:10

[rodgertutt]

WHAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE SEE IN THE BIBLE

So we have Full Preterists/Covenant Creationism that says

By His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, Jesus saves the people who are willing to be saved from whatever they need saving from.
(Just ask Sciotamix. He'll be glad to "prove" it to you)

And then we have Christian Biblical Universalism that says

By His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, sooner or later, Jesus saves everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

URs call this
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
The Outcome of Infinite Grace

TAKE YER PICK

I DID!

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

No, you are twisting the scriptures, jesus is the savior of all people(all inclusive), but chiefly of believers. All are saved, but those that believe are especially/chiefly/even more so saved.

You seem to develop reading comprehension problems when you are reading most of the new testament. I don't think it has anything to do with your literacy, i think it has to do with you inability to accept reality.


If someone were to say to you, "i love all ice cream, especially chocolate ice cream" ... There is no way you would jump to the conclusion that they did not love other types of ice cream or that they only loved chocolate ice cream. If you did draw that from their statement, i would think that you either completely misunderstood what they said, or that you needed to go back to grammar school.

And as has already been proven, the word Kosmos means "created universe and everything in it" in the philosophical/religious sense of the word, and was used that way in the Greek classics and in the poets and by the philosophers. Again, you simply refuse and or are unable to accept the facts and are apparently delusional to think that it does not.


You again seem to be having comprehension problems. It is really simple, because of Adam, everyone is born a sinner, and everyone dies.

I never said Adam was the first biological man.
No, you are wrong, all will be made alive in Christ.

How are you "even more so" saved?

LOL

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

The action of verbs in their tenses, relate to the time and kind of action, as in past (have), present (is), future (will).
And let us not forget to analyze the voice, mood, person, or the number of ALL.

Because of Christ, God thelei - is willing/desiring/wanting....to save man, and "come" to the knowledge of the truth. This is an open ended verb tense that does NOT REQUIRE a fulfillment of the non-foundational and predicated subject of "being or to be saved"...hence Paul exhortation of his audience and congregation in this letter to Timothy's church/elders and Tim himself...... to have included in their PRAYER!

Would you care to further analyze it? I would be happy to.....

Let's look at the verse that all contain the form and tense 1 Tim 2:4 uses:

1 Timothy 2:4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Matthew 16:24 τότε ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἐλθεῖν, ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Matthew 27:43 πέποιθεν ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν, ῥυσάσθω νῦν εἰ θέλει αὐτόν· εἶπεν γὰρ ὅτι θεοῦ εἰμι υἱός.
He trusts in God. Let God deliver him now, if he wants him; for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Mark 8:34 καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος τὸν ὄχλον σὺν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἐλθεῖν / ἀκολουθεῖν, ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
He called the multitude to himself with his disciples, and said to them, "Whoever wants to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Mark 9:35 καὶ καθίσας ἐφώνησεν τοὺς δώδεκα καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· εἴ τις θέλει πρῶτος εἶναι, ἔσται πάντων ἔσχατος καὶ πάντων διάκονος.
He sat down, and called the twelve; and he said to them, "If any man wants to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Luke 5:39 [καὶ] οὐδεὶς πιὼν παλαιὸν θέλει νέον· λέγει γάρ· ὁ παλαιὸς χρηστός ἐστιν.
No man having drunk old wine immediately desires new, for he says, 'The old is better.'"
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Luke 9:23 ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ' ἡμέραν καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
He said to all, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Luke 13:31 ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ ὥρᾳ προσῆλθάν τινες Φαρισαῖοι λέγοντες αὐτῷ· ἔξελθε καὶ πορεύου ἐντεῦθεν ὅτι Ἡρῴδης θέλει σε ἀποκτεῖναι.
On that same day, some Pharisees came, saying to him, "Get out of here, and go away, for Herod wants to kill you."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

John 3:8 τὸ πνεῦμα ὅπου θέλει πνεῖ καὶ τὴν φωνὴν αὐτοῦ ἀκούεις, ἀλλ' οὐκ οἶδας πόθεν ἔρχεται καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγει· οὕτως ἐστὶν πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος.
The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

John 5:21 ὥσπερ γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ἐγείρει τοὺς νεκροὺς καὶ ζῳοποιεῖ, οὕτως καὶ ὁ υἱὸς οὓς θέλει ζῳοποιεῖ.
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Acts 2:12 ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο / διηπόρουν, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες· τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
They were all amazed, and were perplexed, saying one to another, "What does this mean?"
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Acts 17:20 ξενίζοντα γάρ τινα εἰσφέρεις εἰς τὰς ἀκοὰς ἡμῶν· βουλόμεθα οὖν γνῶναι τίνα θέλει ταῦτα εἶναι.
For you bring certain strange things to our ears. We want to know therefore what these things mean."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Romans 9:18 ἄρα οὖν ὃν θέλει ἐλεεῖ ὃν δὲ θέλει σκληρύνει.
So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Romans 9:18 ἄρα οὖν ὃν θέλει ἐλεεῖ ὃν δὲ θέλει σκληρύνει.
So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

1 Corinthians 7:36 Εἰ δέ τις ἀσχημονεῖν ἐπὶ τὴν παρθένον αὐτοῦ νομίζει, ἐὰν ᾖ ὑπέρακμος καὶ οὕτως ὀφείλει γίνεσθαι, ὃ θέλει ποιείτω οὐχ ἁμαρτάνει, γαμείτωσαν.
But if any man thinks that he is behaving inappropriately toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of her age, and if need so requires, let him do what he desires. He doesn't sin. Let them marry.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

1 Corinthians 7:39 Γυνὴ δέδεται ἐφ' ὅσον χρόνον ζῇ ὁ ἀνὴρ αὐτῆς· ἐὰν δὲ κοιμηθῇ ὁ ἀνήρ, ἐλευθέρα ἐστὶν ᾧ θέλει γαμηθῆναι μόνον ἐν κυρίῳ.
A wife is bound by law for as long as her husband lives; but if the husband is dead, she is free to be married to whoever she desires, only in the Lord.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

2 Thessalonians 3:10 καὶ γὰρ ὅτε ἦμεν πρὸς ὑμᾶς, τοῦτο παρηγγέλλομεν ὑμῖν ὅτι, εἴ τις οὐ θέλει ἐργάζεσθαι μηδὲ ἐσθιέτω.
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: "If anyone will not work, neither let him eat."
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Revelation 2:21 καὶ ἔδωκα αὐτῇ χρόνον ἵνα μετανοήσῃ καὶ οὐ θέλει μετανοῆσαι ἐκ τῆς πορνείας αὐτῆς.
I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Revelation 11:5 καὶ εἴ τις αὐτοὺς θέλει ἀδικῆσαι πῦρ ἐκπορεύεται ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτῶν καὶ κατεσθίει τοὺς ἐχθροὺς αὐτῶν· καὶ εἴ τις θελήσῃ αὐτοὺς ἀδικῆσαι, οὕτως δεῖ αὐτὸν ἀποκτανθῆναι.
If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. If anyone desires to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Would you like to carry on further Jerwade?

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

No, you are twisting the scriptures, Jesus is the savior of all people (all inclusive), but chiefly of believers. All are saved, but those that believe are especially/chiefly/even more so saved.

You seem to develop reading comprehension problems when you are reading most of the new testament. I don't think it has anything to do with your literacy, i think it has to do with you inability to accept reality.

If someone were to say to you, "i love all ice cream, especially chocolate ice cream" ... There is no way you would jump to the conclusion that they did not love other types of ice cream or that they only loved chocolate ice cream. If you did draw that from their statement, i would think that you either completely misunderstood what they said, or that you needed to go back to grammar school.

No doubt Ironmaw will reply for himself, but my understanding of what he means by
"even more so saved" is that believers are able to enjoy the assurance that believing in Jesus brings them right now in the present.

"The Savior of all, especially believers" (1 Tim 4:9-11)
See an explanation of why "especially" indicates all-inclusiveness, and cannot mean "only."
Especially Those That Believe

Neither does it mean that Jesus is just the potential Savior of all.
Here is a snippet from Gary's article.

"Now a Savior is much more than a lifeguard. A lifeguard's job is to save people from drowning, but he cannot be a savior until he actually saves someone. Jesus is not declared the potential savior, He is not called a lifeguard. He is, in fact, declared to have accomplished the act of saving, and not just saving those who believe, but even those who do not yet recognize they have been saved, reconciled, redeemed, forgiven. There are many still in prison houses waiting for someone to tell them they have been pardoned. The door is open. Step into the newness of life."

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

How are you "even more so" saved?
LOL

Why did you ignore the chocolate ice cream example??? You may be laughing all the way to the "refining fire" of God's re-education for mocking an obvious truth.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

How are you "even more so" saved?

LOL

Well, that is a good question, but i am surprised that you don't know the answer. I mean if you took the time to even consider that UR might actually the truth, and then asked yourself that question, what would your answer be?

If all people are saved, yet believers are even more so saved, what could that mean?

Could it mean that by having faith and believing, my life in this world is more fulfilling and valuable than one who does not?

Could it mean that knowing Christ and God who sent him is the greatest reward of all, something which i have now which unbelievers and the wicked do not have now, though they may be possessed of great worldly riches and wealth?

Could it be that i am a member of the body of Christ and heir with him in his reign?

Perhaps those things are not enough for some Christians. Perhaps they take those things for granted and that is why they need to believe that the unbelievers and the wicked will suffer for ever or at least remain under the power of death for ever. Perhaps in their own feelings of superiority and self worth they believe they should not have to share salvation with all those they believe to be unworthy and of lesser spiritual pedigree?

Like i said, that is a good question, one which brings many more questions up to the surface if one thinks and reflects long enough on it ...


Peace ...

[pcamps]

Ironmaw you mean like as in "more than conquerors" Romans 8 :37 ? and good measure pressed down shaken together and overflowing ?