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A new covenant replaces that of an old covenant, especially, if the originator of the old contract amended it through an atonement or reparation, regardless of the wrongs which were committed by the other party in past deeds, thus, any liability within the old covenant would no longer be valid. It's called Reconciliation within the Books. However, there are those who use the "Old Covenant" or conditional promises as a defense, but only to further their cause or belief that all men are not created equal. Therefore, salvation only belongs to those who believe now, as if the Spirit is a respecter of persons. What is unrealized by them, is that ALL WILL come to BELIEVE in due time, each in their own era. Those who misuse the Scriptures to serve their own purpose never fully come to the knowledge of the truth in this life. They merely seek fame within the sting of death. And the sin that brings it about is unbelief.
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free; and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
A new covenant replaces that of an old covenant, especially, if the originator of the old contract amended it through an atonement or reparation, regardless of the wrongs which were committed by the other party in past deeds, thus, any liability within the old covenant would no longer be valid. It's called Reconciliation within the Books.
However, there are those who use the "Old Covenant" or conditional promises as a defense, but only to further their cause or belief that all men are not created equal. Therefore, salvation only belongs to those who believe now, as if the Spirit is a respecter of persons.
What is unrealized by them, is that ALL WILL come to BELIEVE in due time, each in their own era. Those who misuse the Scriptures to serve their own purpose never fully come to the knowledge of the truth in this life. They merely seek fame within the sting of death. And the sin that brings it about is unbelief.
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free; and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
Thanks Jerwade! I needed that!
Jesus sooner or later saving everyone IMO is the only conclusion that makes our Savior victoriously CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin
I think it's interesting that no ETers are participating in this debate, and that is probably because they loseeither way, just like the god they worship is a loser, as is the god of the FPCCer, but not so horrifically as the god of the ETer.
1Ti 4:10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men--especially of those believing.
I would say that this verse is indicative of temporal and eternal condition of Salvation...Temporal for the whole world but eternal for those that are elected by God...'Especially of those believing' points back to the first and second instance of 'we' (for he is speaking from the point of a believer)...And because we are so doctrinated in the 'Salvation=Eternal Life' understanding, we automatically read this part of this verse 'Savior of all men' to indicate Eternal Salvation, when in fact it could be stating that Christ's work had a general Salvific impact on the entire world but only a specific impact on the chosen or elected...IOW His work temporarily stayed the hand of God from swift execution of Justice on the world, but especially on those believing...Like a life-time season pass to a game as opposed to a daily pass...one never expires the other expires at the end of the game...
I would say that this verse is indicative of temporal and eternal condition of Salvation...Temporal for the whole world but eternal for those that are elected by God...'Especially of those believing' points back to the first and second instance of 'we' (for he is speaking from the point of a believer)...And because we are so doctrinated in the 'Salvation=Eternal Life' understanding, we automatically read this part of this verse 'Savior of all men' to indicate Eternal Salvation, when in fact it could be stating that Christ's work had a general Salvific impact on the entire world but only a specific impact on the chosen or elected...IOW His work temporarily stayed the hand of God from swift execution of Justice on the world, but especially on those believing...Like a life-time season pass to a game as opposed to a daily pass...one never expires the other expires at the end of the game...
But Richard, God’s purposes are not completed in this current age, but worked out in successive ages. (Eph. 2:7) The message of God’s saving work through Christ is glorious alright, but it is not limited to this lifetime as the “orthodox” church would have us believe. It is not in God’s plan “to save as many as He can before this life ends” only to throw the rest of His precious creation in the dumper for all eternity.
Jesus did not pray for the world, but for those whom the Father gave Him (the disciples). (John 17) Those who are Calvinists will twist this prayer of Jesus to say that God only has intentions to save the elect, while the rest are reserved for never-ending punishment or loss of life forever. But they make the same critical mistake that most of Christendom does in that they do not see that God’s purposes for mankind do not end with this life. GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Everything will be accomplished in GOD’S TIME, not ours. God’s purpose in this age is to bring a people to Himself (elect) in order to reach the non-elect in the ages to come. He is calling US in order to show forth His kindness to OTHERS in the ages to come. Once you see this truth, you will then understand why most people will never come to Christ in this age. This does not mean God has forsaken the many and given them up to suffer never-ending punishments, or loss of life forever. The mercy, love, and compassion of our God will never fail and the Good Shepherd will keep on seeking and saving until each and every last sheep (good and bad) is brought into the fold.
The following link is a good exposition on what the Bible teaches about this subject. REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS
GOD, ALL IN ALL http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
First the first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation will be saved. Then all of the non-elect will be saved later.
URs call this THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/TheOutcomeOfInfiniteGrace.htm (broken link)
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-13-2010 at 07:19 AM..
Reason: addition
Does it say 'draw all men to myslef' or 'save all men'...it does not say 'save' it says 'draw'...
Joh 6:44 No manG3762 canG1410 comeG2064 toG4314 me,G3165 exceptG3362 theG3588 FatherG3962 which hath sentG3992 meG3165 drawG1670 him:G846 andG2532 IG1473 will raise him upG450 G846 at theG3588 lastG2078 day.G2250
ελκύω, ελκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.
There goes 'free will' out the window
Joh 12:32 And I,G2504 ifG1437 I be lifted upG5312 fromG1537 theG3588 earth,G1093 will drawG1670 allG3956 men untoG4314 me.G1683
Joh 12:33 (G1161) ThisG5124 he said,G3004 signifyingG4591 whatG4169 deathG2288 he shouldG3195 die.G599
G3004
λέγω
legō
leg'-o
A primary verb; properly to "lay" forth, that is, (figuratively) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas G2036 and G5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while G4483 is properly to break silence merely, and G2980 means an extended or random harangue]); by implication to mean: - ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say (-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.
12:32 was a reference to the kind of death He should suffer...to use that to imply 'Salvation of all' is just wrong...
Which denotes nothing in UR's favor...how hard is this? So what? People get saved from one salvific event. That is the core of the subject!
Because of Christ...now MAN CAN come to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. Because of Christ, God NOW DELIGHTS in man's salvation!
There are scores of papers on this specific subject, which UR never can exegetically prove their case in regards to grammar and syntax...never...I have not seen one...even tentmaker.....pure philosophical, heartfelt, jargon and rhetoric.
Can you?
PS...I really don't care about my ego or alter ego, integrity, or even humility, I care about truth, and UR, stands in the way.
Sometimes one has to get their hands dirty. I choose that role. I report.....the people decide. I don't teach.
I am not a teacher, I don't want to be, I never will be, I never claimed to be one. So please, for the sake of your integrity, stop lumping me in that category to make your rhetorical case heard. You are going off topic.
What one hears, one learns...What one teaches, one masters...
Richard it stands to reason that the men He draws he saves . No man comes to the Father BUT BYME, no man can come unto me UNLESS the the Father who sent me draws them. No man as any interest in coming unless God does something in that mans heart , because the scripture is absolutely clear "though the world was made by him, IT DID NOT recognize him"
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"ALL WILL come to BELIEVE in due time"
