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sorry for not responding lately. I've been busy. I hope you don't mind, but I am going to have to kind of get off the articles for a while. I just don't have time to read them, address them thoroughly, and keep up with the other posts you send. Hopefully we can discuss those at a later date, but for now I am going to have to just address the current posts if I am going to address everything else.
Here is an easier way to determine what the truth is without getting into a lot of details. Yes we should study the details out eventually so we can try to understand it all, but we can first try to look at things through the 'mind of Christ' and see what the fruits are.
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
Romans 5:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Galations 5
19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
The fruits of the holy spirit are love, joy, and peace. Does the doctrine of hell bring love, joy, and peace to you? Are you at peace with the fact (according to the doctrine of hell) that billions will suffer forever? If you love those who will suffer forever, will you do everything possible to alleviate their suffering? Is this doctrine of hell from the holy spirit? Or is it possible the doctrine of eternal hell is a man-made idol that brings out hate, discord, and selfishness?
Now consider this. Gods two commandments are:
1. Love God with all your heart
2. Love your neighbor (this includes enemies) as yourself
These two commands are IMPOSSIBLE to fulfill if eternal torment is true.
In regards to Luke 2:10, the verse merely states that good news is being brought to the world. It only suggests that the Messiah is born, but nothing more so neither the universalists nor ET believers claim anything here. I know what u r trying to suggest, but this verse doesn't necessarily imply that all will be saved. Either side can interpret it and make it sound valid.
I am confused about Romans 5:13. Mine states, "for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law".
The passage in Galations is referring to believers solely in this matter. It implies what the work of the Spirit does in their lives. It works to remove sin and promote holiness and sanctification. The doctrine of hell does not bring joy, love, or peace to me. However, the death of Christ on the cross does; it makes the Holy Spirit's work possible. No, I find no comfort in the reality that many people all over may go to hell for eternity. However, my belief in hell has nothing to do with my emotions or preferences. As I read Scripture, the reality of hell is only made more apparent. As much as I hate the idea, and as much as I wish you guys were right, I can't allow personal preferences or opinions pervade what I find in Scripture. Unlike you, who believes God is solely love, the God shown in the bible, at least to me, is a loving God who attempts to correct His people at all costs, but ultimately many will not listen and God, who can't allow sin to remain, must exact retribution and justice against those who revel in evil. Basically, God is love, but His love for man does not override His disdain for sin and those who would continue to commit such acts. I would draw out the idea of the unpardonable sin, but that just seems to only bring more controversy and you wouldn't believe me anyway. Yes, I feel for those who remain in their sin. I do wish to help them, I wish to let my life be used for the purpose it was intended: to love God, love man, and make Christ known to all so that He may come to live within them. Is hell from the devil or a man made convention? Again, my view stems from what is found in Scripture and not on my personal views. Scripture has made it clear that those who refuse Christ have ultimately chosen to live apart from Him. God, who is love, will not force them because He loves them and allows them to choose for themselves. It may sound heretical to you, but, again, this is how Scripture has been shown to me. Ultimately, universalists have similar issues. The Bible describes God as holy, loving, and righteous, yet it seems as though universalists remove the part where He is our judge and, like any human judge, He exacts retribution as a means of correction as well as a means of punishment. That is what hell is. Eternal punishment. What's the punishment? These people spend eternity apart from God.
Lastly, in regards to the two commandments, I don't see how my loving God and loving people has any affect on a person's final choice about whether or not to spend eternity with God. My job is to show them the love of God, share the message with them, and hope that God's Word sinks in and leads them to repent. However, the choice remains irrevocably theirs; I simply make it known and hope that they will receive it.
Nero, I posted this on another thread a while ago; I am repeating it as it is relevant to your questions on the Lake of Fire and Revelations:
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Here is the root of the problem. Throughout scripture, text can be found that at face value seems to support both of these positions:
1. God will save all men, Jesus is the savior of all men, Jesus died for all men, Jesus came to save all men, all will be reconciled and redeemed.
2. Some men will be tormented for eternity.
Now, clearly both of these positions cannot be true, as they are contrary to each other. We cannot in good faith say that Jesus is the savior of all men, while simultaneously saying Jesus will throw some men into torment for eternity. So immediately both of these positions are drawn into question. It is at this point many simply throw the bible away and become atheists. But we will not go that route.
It is important to note that since both views may be in question, we cannot implicitly prove one view to be false by saying the other is true. For example, we cannot say God will not really save all men, because some men will be tormented for eternity, because the view that "some men will be eternally tormented" itself is in question. Unfortunately this is exactly what many people do - this is a logical fallacy.
I could just as easily argue "eternal" does not mean eternal because God will indeed save all men, therefore any verses that speak of "eternal" punishment are misunderstood. Its really a "limited" eternal.
No, the debate is not that simple. What we must do is dig deeper into the truth and gather evidence to determine what the true position is. We must search this matter out.
Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
For me, the first strike against the eternal torment position is the obvious mistranslation of certain words to mean "eternal/everlasting/forever" and "hell". This has been debated endlessly in other threads. This is especially clear in certain verses that are rendered with the meaning "eternal", yet the verses CANNOT mean "eternal". See this article and this article to see some examples.
This alone draws into question the truthfulness of position #2 above (suffice it to say the biblical universalist will have settled this matter for himself).
The second strike is the surprisingly large number of scriptures, that on plain reading do in fact say that God will reconcile and save all. And then on close examination
of the scriptures that allegedly support eternal torment, you will find that many of these scriptures do not even explicitly talk about eternal torment; you would only come to that conclusion if you already presupposed eternal torment. Granted, there are a few "difficult verses" for the universalist, but these too can be ultimately explained in a way that is compatible with position #1 above.
For example, here are some common verses that are posted to "prove" eternal torment:
Matt 25:41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
What is "eternal" describing in Matt 25:41? It is describing the fire. It is an eternal fire. It is in no way describing how long anyone must stay in the eternal fire. Therefore eternal torment cannot be proved from this verse.
Rev 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Does Rev 20:15 say how long anyone is in the lake of fire for? Does it say they stay in? Does it say they come out? No, it isn't specified. Yet from the verses in position #1 above we know God will ultimately save all men.
Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Again is Rev 21:8 determining the length of the punishment for all liars and other undesirables? NO. They all have their part in the lake of fire, which is the second death. (Remember Jesus defeats death - would this not include the second death?). So concluding eternal torment from Rev 21:8 is again not possible.
Rev 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
How about Rev 14? Surely it teaches eternal torment for humanity? Actually, no it doesn't. Read it closely. It is only the smoke of their torment that rises forever and ever (not the torment itself). This could be symbolic of torment that brings about a permanent change. Even the words "no rest day or night" don't indicate necessarily indicate eternity, because there is a condition on the "no rest day or night": its only for those who worship the beast and receive his mark. If one stops worshiping the beast, or disowns the mark, then it could be reasonable to say they would again have "rest".
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Finally we have a verse that says something will be tormented forever and ever. Notice who it is that is tormented forever and ever: Satan (not human), the beast (not necessarily human), and the false prophet (not necessarily human either). Remember Revelations is a book of symbols, the beast and the false prophet are both symbols of something - not necessarily a specific person. Note also that Hades and Death are thrown into the Lake of fire, and they aren't human either. Of course many humans are thrown into the lake of fire, but there is no verse that specifies that a human stays in the lake of fire for eternity.
So scripturally based on these verses, all we can conclude that is in the lake of fire forever is Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. That is it. And that's all without even calling into question whether the translation of "forever and ever" is correct, or whether it really means a limited duration "for the eons of the eons" as literal translations tell us.
When you go through all the "eternal hell" verses, surprisingly little of them actually specify an eternal hell. The main "problem" verse is Matt 25:46, which has been addressed many times in this forum. We can look at it later if you wish.
Position #2 begins above begins to crumble when you see that the verses used as "proof" of eternal torment don't actually say that.
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Again, back to the OP, we know Jesus is the savior of the world, and He came to save the world. Who are we to say He won't do it? Yet that is what many do. They do this while ignoring the verses I posted previously which say that all will bow, confess, and swear allegiance to Jesus, and sing praises joyfully to Him. They do this because He saves them!
Jesus came to save the world. He will do it. To say He won't is to say He fails at what He came to do.
Okay, I'll grant that some of these passage can be interpreted in a way that eliminates the perception of time regarding the punishment of unbelievers. However, one main problem still remains. While conception of time in this period of correction( aka hell) can be disputed, the issue remains that the book ends with these people still down there. Why? Why would the one book of the bible that could best solve the issue of the apocalypse and what will happen to humanity end with these people still down there? You can try to pull up other passages that state that all will be saved, but then there is a discrepancy in so much that the passages would not corroborate with each other. We can't assume these people get out; otherwise, we are breeding our own opinions and preferences and not looking at the Word. This is where my belief in hell as a reality comes best into play. Though "aion" and "aionios" can be interpreted in several ways, it is a matter of contextualizing, the issue remains that there is no mention of these people being removed from this hell. Universalists say we interpret this wrong, but then ET believers say the same thing about them. Both sides argue over the context in which the word is being used. Ultimately, it comes down to what, and who, u r willing to believe. However, it would seem that many Jesus' apocalyptic parables match up with the idea of ET, which again is why I believe in hell.
Nero 777:While conception of time in this period of correction( aka hell) can be disputed, the issue remains that the book ends with these people still down there
Just remembered this passage:
Re 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Seems to me like the invitation is still open to ANY that is athirst i don't see any restrictions on the "whosoever" and this is close to the end of the book
what four or five verses from the end?
I understand about reading the articles. Keep them for a rainy day if you want. Reading through them will give you a greater understanding than these discussions here, but only if you are genuinely interested. And it does take time to read them, let alone absorb what is trying to be said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777
In regards to Luke 2:10, the verse merely states that good news is being brought to the world. It only suggests that the Messiah is born, but nothing more so neither the universalists nor ET believers claim anything here. I know what u r trying to suggest, but this verse doesn't necessarily imply that all will be saved. Either side can interpret it and make it sound valid.
The point I was making is that Luke 2:10 says the good news is great joy for all people. How can it be great joy for those who suffer eternally? How is it great joy for those who are saved, but just "know" their loved ones are in hell right now, and there's nothing to be done for them? Yet Luke 2:10 says it will be great joy for everyone.
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I am confused about Romans 5:13. Mine states, "for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law".
Quote:
The passage in Galations is referring to believers solely in this matter. It implies what the work of the Spirit does in their lives. It works to remove sin and promote holiness and sanctification. The doctrine of hell does not bring joy, love, or peace to me. However, the death of Christ on the cross does; it makes the Holy Spirit's work possible. No, I find no comfort in the reality that many people all over may go to hell for eternity. However, my belief in hell has nothing to do with my emotions or preferences.
Whether Galations is referring to believers or not is not the point.
The point here is to show a "litmus test" of what you are believing. If it is of the holy spirit, it will bring you joy, peace, and love.
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As I read Scripture, the reality of hell is only made more apparent. As much as I hate the idea, and as much as I wish you guys were right, I can't allow personal preferences or opinions pervade what I find in Scripture.
I just encourage you to study the "reality of hell" in the bible. I already showed you there are some questions about the nature of the lake of fire. There are even more questions about the OT "hell", translated from the hebrew "sheol" which means grave or unseen. Likewise the NT "hell" is translated from hades (same meaning as "sheol"), gehenna (which was a literal place: the valley of Hinnom, still in existence today, though it no longer burns), and one time from the word tartarus. Why all these different words translated as "hell"? Search it out if you wish.
Quote:
Unlike you, who believes God is solely love, the God shown in the bible, at least to me, is a loving God who attempts to correct His people at all costs, but ultimately many will not listen and God, who can't allow sin to remain, must exact retribution and justice against those who revel in evil. Basically, God is love, but His love for man does not override His disdain for sin and those who would continue to commit such acts.
Whoah, slow down here. God is "only love"? Yes GOD IS LOVE. But do you think this somehow discounts His holiness, justice, and righteousness? The reason He is completely just is because He is LOVE. Loving Justice executes the exact punishment necessary to correct the situation. And God does more than "attempt" to correct people, He actually does it! You are giving way to much credit to man's "free will" and too little credit to God's power and sovereignty.
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I would draw out the idea of the unpardonable sin, but that just seems to only bring more controversy and you wouldn't believe me anyway. Yes, I feel for those who remain in their sin. I do wish to help them, I wish to let my life be used for the purpose it was intended: to love God, love man, and make Christ known to all so that He may come to live within them. Is hell from the devil or a man made convention? Again, my view stems from what is found in Scripture and not on my personal views. Scripture has made it clear that those who refuse Christ have ultimately chosen to live apart from Him. God, who is love, will not force them because He loves them and allows them to choose for themselves. It may sound heretical to you, but, again, this is how Scripture has been shown to me. Ultimately, universalists have similar issues. The Bible describes God as holy, loving, and righteous, yet it seems as though universalists remove the part where He is our judge and, like any human judge, He exacts retribution as a means of correction as well as a means of punishment. That is what hell is. Eternal punishment. What's the punishment? These people spend eternity apart from God.
The main disagreement here is that you think God can't get his way because He won't force someone to go against their free will choice. However, would you believe that God can change someone's will? There are many biblical examples of this, but a great one is Saul's conversion on the road to Damascus. He was on His way to persecute and KILL christians. That was Saul's/Paul's will. Yet God changed Paul's will in an instant, and Paul became one of the greatest apostles.
Do you doubt God could do that for the very worst sinner who dies unsaved? I don't doubt God could, because I know He is all powerful and He wants to save all people.
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Lastly, in regards to the two commandments, I don't see how my loving God and loving people has any affect on a person's final choice about whether or not to spend eternity with God. My job is to show them the love of God, share the message with them, and hope that God's Word sinks in and leads them to repent. However, the choice remains irrevocably theirs; I simply make it known and hope that they will receive it.
You missed the point here a bit, let me explain further.
God tells us to love God with all our heart, and also love our neighbors (which includes our enemies) as ourselves. When you truly love someone, you will do anything for that person, you will protect that person, you will selflessly sacrifice yourself for that person. There is no greater love than to lay down your life for someone else. Hopefully you get the idea.
So if our enemies (or even our friends/loved ones) end up in hell, how can God expect us to love them, and also expect us to NOT try to save and protect and sacrifice ourself for that person?
Do you see how powerful love is here? Do you see why Love is the greatest commandment? (Do you see why God IS LOVE?)
If you love someone, you will NOT experience joy nor peace if you know that person is suffering. How would anyone in heaven (who by virtue of being in heaven, would love their neighbors and enemies) experience peace and joy, while simultaneously trying to love their enemies, knowing it is the ultimate in futility?
Love is not simply words, but actions. Love is protecting your child. Love is teaching them about good and evil. Love is having patience with your enemies. Love is being kind to those who curse you. Love ALWAYS protects.
If we truly are allowed to love those in "hell", love will overcome hell itself.
Okay, I'll grant that some of these passage can be interpreted in a way that eliminates the perception of time regarding the punishment of unbelievers. However, one main problem still remains. While conception of time in this period of correction( aka hell) can be disputed, the issue remains that the book ends with these people still down there. Why? Why would the one book of the bible that could best solve the issue of the apocalypse and what will happen to humanity end with these people still down there? You can try to pull up other passages that state that all will be saved, but then there is a discrepancy in so much that the passages would not corroborate with each other. We can't assume these people get out; otherwise, we are breeding our own opinions and preferences and not looking at the Word. This is where my belief in hell as a reality comes best into play. Though "aion" and "aionios" can be interpreted in several ways, it is a matter of contextualizing, the issue remains that there is no mention of these people being removed from this hell. Universalists say we interpret this wrong, but then ET believers say the same thing about them. Both sides argue over the context in which the word is being used. Ultimately, it comes down to what, and who, u r willing to believe. However, it would seem that many Jesus' apocalyptic parables match up with the idea of ET, which again is why I believe in hell.
Hi Nero, well as dippidydoodaa pointed out, Rev 22:17 tells us that anyone can freely come. Also Rev 21:25 tells us the gates to the city are never shut... anyone can come in if they wash themselves in the living water (Christ). Christ will never turn anyone away.
But also consider this. Rev 22:5 tells us Christ reigns "forever and ever", however the literal translation is actually "for the ages of the ages" (see aion study again - concordant literal translation renders it like that). Are you aware there is a passage of scripture that speaks to a time beyond Revelations? To a time when Christ and no one else is reigning any more? Paul stated it here:
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Christ reigns until all enemies are put under His feet. Then He hands all reign and power over to the Father, so that God may be all in all. This happens well beyond what Revelations tells us, because Christ is still reigning in Revelations. Christ must stop reigning eventually, otherwise death is never destroyed (it is the last enemy), and God would never be all in all.
This is how we know the people in the lake of fire "get out" as you put it. Revelations is not the end. The end is when God is all in all and all enemies have been defeated.
Re 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Seems to me like the invitation is still open to ANY that is athirst i don't see any restrictions on the "whosoever" and this is close to the end of the book
what four or five verses from the end?
Also a warning to not take away.......
But then you neglect Rev. 22:12-15- "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Furthermore, let's look at Rev. 21: 25-27- On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful and deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Finally, Rev. 20:12-15- And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea have up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Question, what was the point of that last verse if all people would be saved? If all were saved, then everyone should be in the Lamb's book, but verse 27, says that not all will enter heaven, only those who are in the book. If not all are in the book, then not all are going to heaven. Ill elaborate more late.
Finally, Rev. 20:12-15- And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea have up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Question, what was the point of that last verse if all people would be saved? If all were saved, then everyone should be in the Lamb's book, but verse 27, says that not all will enter heaven, only those who are in the book. If not all are in the book, then not all are going to heaven. Ill elaborate more late.
Twin spin,
Something that strikes me is that when it says that the dead are judged - there is no mention that they are raised (resurrected) or living, at the time that they are judged.
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Christ reigns until all enemies are put under His feet. Then He hands all reign and power over to the Father, so that God may be all in all. This happens well beyond what Revelations tells us, because Christ is still reigning in Revelations. Christ must stop reigning eventually, otherwise death is never destroyed (it is the last enemy), and God would never be all in all.
This is how we know the people in the lake of fire "get out" as you put it. Revelations is not the end. The end is when God is all in all and all enemies have been defeated.
Here is where it gets complicated I feel. What about the devil and his demons? Clearly, they are to be put under the feet of Christ as all else will, yet will God be in them? Some universalists say yes, some say no. Just because one has rule over all things doesn't mean that those who were subjugated did it willfully:example: the devil. Why will all humans willfully submit to Christ lordship when the devil and his demons won't, even though they were the very ones who spent time in His presence? Recognition of lordship doesn't mean that they did it because they joyfully and happily recognized it. In the book of James, and even in the story of Legion, the demons recognized the lordship of Christ over all, yet they all continue to fight Him. Why are humans any different?
Hi Nero,
The point I was making is that Luke 2:10 says the good news is great joy for all people. How can it be great joy for those who suffer eternally? How is it great joy for those who are saved, but just "know" their loved ones are in hell right now, and there's nothing to be done for them? Yet Luke 2:10 says it will be great joy for everyone..
The passage is referring to a Messiah coming into the world to save man from sin and restore a relationship to God; it is describing the most simplistic, yet most well understood part of the Christian faith. God came down in human form to be with His people. That was the highlight here. What we are discussing centers more around what He did on the cross. The complexity of the issue is not found in the Gospels, but in the following letters that try to put this significant event into proper context.
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Originally Posted by legoman
Hi Nero,Whether Galations is referring to believers or not is not the point.
The point here is to show a "litmus test" of what you are believing. If it is of the holy spirit, it will bring you joy, peace, and love.
And what the Holy Spirit has brought me in my walk with Christ has been joy, peace, and love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Hi Nero,I just encourage you to study the "reality of hell" in the bible. I already showed you there are some questions about the nature of the lake of fire. There are even more questions about the OT "hell", translated from the hebrew "sheol" which means grave or unseen. Likewise the NT "hell" is translated from hades (same meaning as "sheol"), gehenna (which was a literal place: the valley of Hinnom, still in existence today, though it no longer burns), and one time from the word tartarus. Why all these different words translated as "hell"? Search it out if you wish..
I am well aware of these arguments. I am continuing my study, but I know these arguments all quite well, as well as how well disputed it all is at the moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Hi Nero,Whoah, slow down here. God is "only love"? Yes GOD IS LOVE. But do you think this somehow discounts His holiness, justice, and righteousness? The reason He is completely just is because He is LOVE. Loving Justice executes the exact punishment necessary to correct the situation. And God does more than "attempt" to correct people, He actually does it! You are giving way to much credit to man's "free will" and too little credit to God's power and sovereignty.
God is the embodiment of perfection. Every characteristic we use to describe God is not able to do Him justice because the degree to which He fulfills it is beyond our imagining. We say God is love, and it's true. But Scripture also says that God is holy, righteous, and just. Holy, be definition, means to be apart from; in this case God is apart from sin. No sin will ever enter into the heavenly realms and remain there. God will stay away from sin, thus the need of a savior is heightened as we need someone who can blight out our transgressions. You argue that loving justice exacts punishment for correction only. It doesn't, perfect judgment exacts punishment as well. How can a perfect God be less effective in administering justice than our own corrupt legal system? Going back to the OT, God didn't just correct Israel with the Exile, He punished them as well. Many people were brutally murdered and ruined by God's judgement. These people died. They didn't have the opportunity to be corrected. This is where it gets complicated for us. You put too much faith in humanity as being able to change. You think that we will change our ways just because we enter into His presence; you don't think there is such a thing as becoming too hard in heart to accept God, but Scripture is full of such scenarios, most notably the devil, who lived in God's presence yet he still fell into sin. Why are humans any different? I don't put too much faith in human free will, but ultimately a relationship, by definition, has to be recognized by both parties willingly. You can't just make ur wife love you, you have to give her all of ur love and trust that she will return that love in kind. If she doesn't, then the relationship is doomed to fail. The same with God. God could make us do anything He wants, even love Him, but that love would be artificial and not stemming from our willingness to recognize that we need a Savior that we need a Lord who will be our protector, our friend, our "husband" as the bible puts it sometimes. Only a surrendered heart can be in a relationship with God, but most humans will not accept surrendering their rights to God, they want to keep it for themselves. God will pull at their heart, but ultimately the decision is theirs if a relationship is to truly form. Otherwise, we are all just a bunch of robots and there is nothing special about us. Furthermore, if God was willing to make us love Him, then why didn't He do that from the beginning? Why didn't He make sure Adam and Eve were incapable of disobeying Him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Hi Nero,The main disagreement here is that you think God can't get his way because He won't force someone to go against their free will choice. However, would you believe that God can change someone's will? There are many biblical examples of this, but a great one is Saul's conversion on the road to Damascus. He was on His way to persecute and KILL christians. That was Saul's/Paul's will. Yet God changed Paul's will in an instant, and Paul became one of the greatest apostles..
God can change someone's will, but this is where I would pull out the unpardonable sin to indicate that there are people who are just so hardened to God's love that they can't feel anything towards Him anymore. Naturally, I know what you are going to say next about this, but the point is that there are people who are just hardened to God's love, they simply can't feel anything towards Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Hi Nero,Do you doubt God could do that for the very worst sinner who dies unsaved? I don't doubt God could, because I know He is all powerful and He wants to save all people.
You missed the point here a bit, let me explain further.
God tells us to love God with all our heart, and also love our neighbors (which includes our enemies) as ourselves. When you truly love someone, you will do anything for that person, you will protect that person, you will selflessly sacrifice yourself for that person. There is no greater love than to lay down your life for someone else. Hopefully you get the idea.
So if our enemies (or even our friends/loved ones) end up in hell, how can God expect us to love them, and also expect us to NOT try to save and protect and sacrifice ourself for that person?
Do you see how powerful love is here? Do you see why Love is the greatest commandment? (Do you see why God IS LOVE?)
If you love someone, you will NOT experience joy nor peace if you know that person is suffering. How would anyone in heaven (who by virtue of being in heaven, would love their neighbors and enemies) experience peace and joy, while simultaneously trying to love their enemies, knowing it is the ultimate in futility?
Love is not simply words, but actions. Love is protecting your child. Love is teaching them about good and evil. Love is having patience with your enemies. Love is being kind to those who curse you. Love ALWAYS protects.
If we truly are allowed to love those in "hell", love will overcome hell itself.
I see how powerful love is; however, I know that God has more characteristics than love. As mentioned, He is holy, righteous, and just, which, for the simple that fact that He is God, also perfectly define His being as well. As Enow and other ET believers have indicated, there are numerous passages in the Bible where justification and salvation are the product of faith in God. Only when one believes can one be saved (John 3:16 is the most popular). The people in hell are the ones that blatantly refused God's love and sacrifice. They failed to acknowledge His death on the cross and the power it holds for humanity, which, if we take in consideration with the passages on the first page posted by Enow, means that the blood of the Lamb will not atone for their transgressions simply for the fact that they didn't want the blood to cover them. As such, sin remains in their life, which, considering that God is holy, means that they are not allowed to enter His presence, aka heaven. You know the argument so I won't go much further. However, universalists are so fixated on the fact that God is LOVE that they neglect every other attribute that characterizes God. It seems that anything that we deem cruel or unusual can't possibly be love so therefore can't be of God. However, we are not perfectly holy, righteous, or just, so we can't presume such measures either. Unless we can see things from God's perspective, anything else here you and I argue can simply stem from our own understanding of love, holiness, righteousness, and God's just nature, which doesn't compare to God in the slightest. Is it horrible that those people are in hell? Yes, very much so, but Scripture, at least as it has been revealed to me, shows that the people in hell are the ones who rejected God first; they rejected Him and His sacrifice, and God, out of love and respect for His own creation, allowed them to go their way because a forced love is not love at all. They will spend eternity apart from God and, even after death, I will still not be able to comprehend everything that God does, but I am not God and I leave it to Him to be the judge for only He can do it unbiasly and perfectly. Is it love? Well, God respected their wishes, and He didn't annihilate them as some would presume. Depending on how you want to look at it, it still is a sign that He loves them.
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