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The passage is referring to a Messiah coming into the world to save man from sin and restore a relationship to God; it is describing the most simplistic, yet most well understood part of the Christian faith. God came down in human form to be with His people. That was the highlight here. What we are discussing centers more around what He did on the cross. The complexity of the issue is not found in the Gospels, but in the following letters that try to put this significant event into proper context.
And what the Holy Spirit has brought me in my walk with Christ has been joy, peace, and love.
I am well aware of these arguments. I am continuing my study, but I know these arguments all quite well, as well as how well disputed it all is at the moment.
God is the embodiment of perfection. Every characteristic we use to describe God is not able to do Him justice because the degree to which He fulfills it is beyond our imagining. We say God is love, and it's true. But Scripture also says that God is holy, righteous, and just. Holy, be definition, means to be apart from; in this case God is apart from sin. No sin will ever enter into the heavenly realms and remain there. God will stay away from sin, thus the need of a savior is heightened as we need someone who can blight out our transgressions. You argue that loving justice exacts punishment for correction only. It doesn't, perfect judgment exacts punishment as well. How can a perfect God be less effective in administering justice than our own corrupt legal system? Going back to the OT, God didn't just correct Israel with the Exile, He punished them as well. Many people were brutally murdered and ruined by God's judgement. These people died. They didn't have the opportunity to be corrected. This is where it gets complicated for us. You put too much faith in humanity as being able to change. You think that we will change our ways just because we enter into His presence; you don't think there is such a thing as becoming too hard in heart to accept God, but Scripture is full of such scenarios, most notably the devil, who lived in God's presence yet he still fell into sin. Why are humans any different? I don't put too much faith in human free will, but ultimately a relationship, by definition, has to be recognized by both parties willingly. You can't just make ur wife love you, you have to give her all of ur love and trust that she will return that love in kind. If she doesn't, then the relationship is doomed to fail. The same with God. God could make us do anything He wants, even love Him, but that love would be artificial and not stemming from our willingness to recognize that we need a Savior that we need a Lord who will be our protector, our friend, our "husband" as the bible puts it sometimes. Only a surrendered heart can be in a relationship with God, but most humans will not accept surrendering their rights to God, they want to keep it for themselves. God will pull at their heart, but ultimately the decision is theirs if a relationship is to truly form. Otherwise, we are all just a bunch of robots and there is nothing special about us. Furthermore, if God was willing to make us love Him, then why didn't He do that from the beginning? Why didn't He make sure Adam and Eve were incapable of disobeying Him?
God can change someone's will, but this is where I would pull out the unpardonable sin to indicate that there are people who are just so hardened to God's love that they can't feel anything towards Him anymore. Naturally, I know what you are going to say next about this, but the point is that there are people who are just hardened to God's love, they simply can't feel anything towards Him.
I see how powerful love is; however, I know that God has more characteristics than love. As mentioned, He is holy, righteous, and just, which, for the simple that fact that He is God, also perfectly define His being as well. As Enow and other ET believers have indicated, there are numerous passages in the Bible where justification and salvation are the product of faith in God. Only when one believes can one be saved (John 3:16 is the most popular). The people in hell are the ones that blatantly refused God's love and sacrifice. They failed to acknowledge His death on the cross and the power it holds for humanity, which, if we take in consideration with the passages on the first page posted by Enow, means that the blood of the Lamb will not atone for their transgressions simply for the fact that they didn't want the blood to cover them. As such, sin remains in their life, which, considering that God is holy, means that they are not allowed to enter His presence, aka heaven. You know the argument so I won't go much further. However, universalists are so fixated on the fact that God is LOVE that they neglect every other attribute that characterizes God. It seems that anything that we deem cruel or unusual can't possibly be love so therefore can't be of God. However, we are not perfectly holy, righteous, or just, so we can't presume such measures either. Unless we can see things from God's perspective, anything else here you and I argue can simply stem from our own understanding of love, holiness, righteousness, and God's just nature, which doesn't compare to God in the slightest. Is it horrible that those people are in hell? Yes, very much so, but Scripture, at least as it has been revealed to me, shows that the people in hell are the ones who rejected God first; they rejected Him and His sacrifice, and God, out of love and respect for His own creation, allowed them to go their way because a forced love is not love at all. They will spend eternity apart from God and, even after death, I will still not be able to comprehend everything that God does, but I am not God and I leave it to Him to be the judge for only He can do it unbiasly and perfectly. Is it love? Well, God respected their wishes, and He didn't annihilate them as some would presume. Depending on how you want to look at it, it still is a sign that He loves them.
If God created you to sin then he can certainly create you anew to righteousness... why do people limit God in such a way? Can God not sculpt the clay as he wants? If God truly wanted you in heaven do you think there is anything in the world or heavens that would stop him? He created you in your mother's womb without your permission, what makes you think you get a choice in whether or not you are in his presence upon death?
If God is God then he is the one who makes those decisions, not you.. and if God wills that all be saved all he has to do is say "all are saved..." and it is DONE... God is in control of everything (including your "will") or he is no god at all.
Are humans so egocentric that they can't see that an omnipotent God can do whatever he pleases within his character?
and what exactly do you think the character of God is? Evil, Good, Both?
If God created you to sin then he can certainly create you anew to righteousness... why do people limit God in such a way? Can God not sculpt the clay as he wants? If God truly wanted you in heaven do you think there is anything in the world or heavens that would stop him? He created you in your mother's womb without your permission, what makes you think you get a choice in whether or not you are in his presence upon death?
If God is God then he is the one who makes those decisions, not you.. and if God wills that all be saved all he has to do is say "all are saved..." and it is DONE... God is in control of everything (including your "will") or he is no god at all.
Are humans so egocentric that they can't see that an omnipotent God can do whatever he pleases within his character?
and what exactly do you think the character of God is? Evil, Good, Both?
How am I doing anything different from you? You say that I am limiting God because I believe He won't infringe on the free will He gave His creation to love Him. However, are you not limiting God by saying that just because He handles people who refuse to stop sinning in a way that sounds unpleasant to you then it can't possibly be from God? You are trying to conform God to ur standard of love, justice, and mercy. You make Him sound like you want Him to be, so don't imply that I am being egocentric or attempting to limit God, you are just as much to blame. You seem to miss one important concept of love as well. A love that is forced is not love at all. I've already discussed the fact that people can be hardened to God and His will to the point that they care nothing at all for Him nor feel any desire to obey Him. God, being holy (set apart) from sin, cannot allow sin to reside in His presence, which is why we needed to Jesus, who indicated throughout Scripture the importance of faith and belief in order to be saved, yet you never highlight those passages. Tell me, can you make anyone fall in love with you and call it genuine love? No. God wants people to truly surrender, people to obey Him for who He is and not what He can make them do. Only then is love genuine, only then is it real. To make someone love you is artificial. Is God's love artificial? Finally, quit saying that God is at fault for people who are in hell. No person who believes in ET claims that God put those people there, yet universalists seem to want to make that assumption.
PS
God's nature is Good, it's man that is screwed up and God (being Good) must deal with man accordingly. How He does it is His plan, I am going by what Scripture has revealed not by what I deem pleasant or more efficient.
How am I doing anything different from you? You say that I am limiting God because I believe He won't infringe on the free will He gave His creation to love Him. However, are you not limiting God by saying that just because He handles people who refuse to stop sinning in a way that sounds unpleasant to you then it can't possibly be from God? You are trying to conform God to ur standard of love, justice, and mercy. You make Him sound like you want Him to be, so don't imply that I am being egocentric or attempting to limit God, you are just as much to blame. You seem to miss one important concept of love as well. A love that is forced is not love at all. I've already discussed the fact that people can be hardened to God and His will to the point that they care nothing at all for Him nor feel any desire to obey Him. God, being holy (set apart) from sin, cannot allow sin to reside in His presence, which is why we needed to Jesus, who indicated throughout Scripture the importance of faith and belief in order to be saved, yet you never highlight those passages. Tell me, can you make anyone fall in love with you and call it genuine love? No. God wants people to truly surrender, people to obey Him for who He is and not what He can make them do. Only then is love genuine, only then is it real. To make someone love you is artificial. Is God's love artificial? Finally, quit saying that God is at fault for people who are in hell. No person who believes in ET claims that God put those people there, yet universalists seem to want to make that assumption.
PS
God's nature is Good, it's man that is screwed up and God (being Good) must deal with man accordingly. How He does it is His plan, I am going by what Scripture has revealed not by what I deem pleasant or more efficient.
Please take the time to listen to this video. I found it interesting because it is truly realistic.
What you are saying is that hell is Good according to God. Can God call evil good? Burning people is evil. I feel it in my spirit. There is nothing Good about it. If God is Good then can he be Evil and punish Evil at the same time?
What you are saying is that hell is Good according to God. Can God call evil good? Burning people is evil. I feel it in my spirit. There is nothing Good about it. If God is Good then can he be Evil and punish Evil at the same time?
Are you really using an atheist's argument to deal with a strictly theistic issue? Secondly, I never said anything about hell being good nor did I say anything about what God calls evil or good. It's God's choice, not mine. Thirdly, you are still trying to conform God to ur standards of right and wrong and just vs inhumane, though you and I lack any understanding of what it means to be perfectly holy, just, righteous, and love. I never once said that hell was good nor that I like the idea of such a place, I am merely defending what was revealed through Scripture. Quit trying to put words that I never said into my mouth.
Originally Posted by Nero777 How am I doing anything different from you? You say that I am limiting God because I believe He won't infringe on the free will He gave His creation to love Him.
Let's see, God won't infringe on the supposed free will to love Him but He will infringe on the supposed free will to damn them?
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However, are you not limiting God by saying that just because He handles people who refuse to stop sinning in a way that sounds unpleasant to you then it can't possibly be from God?
I think the point is that ETERNAL tortue can't be from a loving, all knowing, all present, all powerful God. Chastening? Yes.
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You are trying to conform God to ur standard of love, justice, and mercy.
I think the standard is more that which God implanted into the breast of every rational, loving human.
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You make Him sound like you want Him to be, so don't imply that I am being egocentric or attempting to limit God, you are just as much to blame.
O.K.
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You seem to miss one important concept of love as well. A love that is forced is not love at all.
If mankind has a supposed "free will" which is a will free from influence, and if God threatens people with eternal torture if they don't love Him, is He not in fact forcing Himself by way of holding them hostage to their fears till they break? Since the will of man is to run from God (Romans 3:10-18) how does God get man to love Him unless he intrude and change them from the inside against their wills?
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I've already discussed the fact that people can be hardened to God and His will to the point that they care nothing at all for Him nor feel any desire to obey Him.
And they are hardened by God. Why would God make it impossible to love Him if eternal torment is true? Doesn't that sound rather odd to you?
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God, being holy (set apart) from sin, cannot allow sin to reside in His presence, which is why we needed to Jesus, who indicated throughout Scripture the importance of faith and belief in order to be saved, yet you never highlight those passages.
Which brings us to an important point: Since Christ died for all the sins of all mankind, and since God accepted that sacrifice, that this must have done something for mankind. The ones God gives faith are the ones He has chosen and they will be glorified. They believe not out of a free will but due to God overwhelming them. The rest of mankind will come later.
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Tell me, can you make anyone fall in love with you and call it genuine love? No.
But God can. He will change the hearts of His people and in that day they will love Him with all their heart when He gives them a new heart.
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God wants people to truly surrender, people to obey Him for who He is and not what He can make them do. Only then is love genuine, only then is it real. To make someone love you is artificial. Is God's love artificial? Finally, quit saying that God is at fault for people who are in hell. No person who believes in ET claims that God put those people there, yet universalists seem to want to make that assumption.
It is easy to surrender to a god who is dangling you over an eternal hell fire and damnation pit. yea, that's real surrender all right! LOL.
You are incorrect as to your last sentence. Calvinists believe God purposely created people for hell.
... are you not limiting God by saying that just because He handles people who refuse to stop sinning in a way that sounds unpleasant to you then it can't possibly be from God?
More than simply what we think of God, but what God has said about Himself - as well as what he's commanded us to do (and not to do).
Eternal torment violates many commandments given to the people of God.
Are you really using an atheist's argument to deal with a strictly theistic issue? Secondly, I never said anything about hell being good nor did I say anything about what God calls evil or good. It's God's choice, not mine. Thirdly, you are still trying to conform God to ur standards of right and wrong and just vs inhumane, though you and I lack any understanding of what it means to be perfectly holy, just, righteous, and love. I never once said that hell was good nor that I like the idea of such a place, I am merely defending what was revealed through Scripture. Quit trying to put words that I never said into my mouth.
I am not saying the atheist point of view is wholly right, but I am saying that the logic behind it is sound. IOW refuting hell is so easy logically that even an atheist can do it ().
Sound reasoning is a tool we humans are given and I like to take advantage of that as a measure of what is plausible or not, what is truth or not. Hell is not a reasonable thing. However, I am not trying to put words in your mouth.. it's just a discussion and is not personal.
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."
The Hand of Sovereignty verses the hand of Self-determinism, do not convey the same intimate connection, as in: "His Spirit goes hand in hand with ours; one hand in the other, if we're walking in the cool of the day."
The former, implies a separation as is viewed in the minds of men. And the crusaders of these separate directions (camps, per se) have left the people in the swamps of blind behaviorism by subjectively removing, ignoring, or explaining away His Attributes as secondary or outside of His Sovereignty. I see things as being more compatible without the fatalism of either side of the equation; given the thoughts and intents within the heart of men, who eliminate aspects of His Sovereignty, attributes, or our choices.
We will make one choice or that of another in any given situation, especially, when confronted with alternatives. If I refuse to make a choice, I am still making a choice; the choice not to choose. Which is not the opposite of making a choice, rather, the absence of making one. It is impossible for men to make progress beyond the boundaries of the system to which they are attached without the Spirit of truth.
Therefore, let us remember to walk in the Spirit of the Day, it's ALL GOOD!
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice...
The clay was marred in the Potters hand. We were made subject to vanity - not willingly - but because He planned to bring life out of death. (Jer 8:14, Rom 8:20)
I am not saying the atheist point of view is wholly right, but I am saying that the logic behind it is sound. IOW refuting hell is so easy logically that even an atheist can do it ().
Yes, common sense goes a long way, doesn't it?
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