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As almost everyone who frequents this forum knows, I am a Universalist Christian. The quick definition is I believe in the eventual reconciliation of God's creation-in it's entirety-to Himself, made possible by the atoning work of Jesus.
My question is this: in Luke 23:34, Jesus, while dying on the cross, cried out to God, saying "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
Do you think God answered Jesus' prayer? If so, doesn't that mean that God forgave them without them having to ask for it? If not, what is your reasoning, or what scriptural proof do you have that God did not do so?
This question really intrigues me. Obviously, I believe that God did, but I realize many disagree with my beliefs-I just ask that everyone stay respectful please. No belittling each other's beliefs, and that includes me.
I do believe God, the Father, DID answer Jesus' prayer. But.......any answer from God must still comply with the Law. One way to look at this:
One condition for forgiveness: repentence. God is very willing to forgive, but people have to turn from sin first, to repent. If I were a thief, I couldn't ask God to forgive me, and yet keep on stealing. Like: "God...I know this is wrong, but hey, I gotta make a living, so please forgive me while I pull off this bank heist this morning...". No, I'd have to quit the sin first. Let's say (for the sake of this discussion) that 1000 people were directly, or indirectly, responsible for the crucifiction. And let's say that a day after Jesus died on the cross, half of them are remorseful and realize they made a mistake. This half, sorrowfully and humbly, ask God to forgive them. They repent. Let's say the other half NEVER feel sorry for what they did. They feel they were right. They do not repent. They insist they were right. They eventually go to their graves, never having asked for forgiveness.
Do you feel God forgave ALL of them? Regardless of repentence, or not? Or just the half that turned, repented, and came to Him, and asked to be forgiven? I believe Jesus intent was for God the Father to forgive ALL those involved in the crucifiction, who would later come to Him, repent, and ask for forgiveness...to be forgiven. IE: not to make involvement in the crucifiction the "unpardonable" sin. So yes, God answered Jesus' prayer...
“Forgive them, for they know not what they do..” Don’t you think that this is how Jesus still feels about the unsaved? He wishes that all could be saved. I think He is very sad when He sees much of God’s creation ignoring His gift, and not fully realizing or accepting the consequences, when all could come to Him… the Bible says that He is still interceding on our behalf. I think that how He was feeling as He was being nailed to the cross. The ones He had come to save were rejecting Him. IMO they would still have had to accept salvation to be saved, and it could easily be that some did.
Imo. , and I have a couple on this question. He may have asked God to forgive them, because his death and everything leading up to it was predicted in the old testament. So maybe these individuals were predestined to do what they did, and didn't know why they were doing this (maybe against their will) so Jesus made the plea"for they know not what they do"
On the other hand Jesus may have been refering to the lack of knowledge among some of the people about the messiah.
So, they were predestined to do what they did. Are they the only ones that God has predestined, in general? Or has he predestined all of us?
I like the way you put that! Very interesting! Thanks, blue! LuLu
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62
Imo. , and I have a couple on this question. He may have asked God to forgive them, because his death and everything leading up to it was predicted in the old testament. So maybe these individuals were predestined to do what they did, and didn't know why they were doing this (maybe against their will) so Jesus made the plea"for they know not what they do"
On the other hand Jesus may have been refering to the lack of knowledge among some of the people about the messiah.
I do believe God, the Father, DID answer Jesus' prayer. But.......any answer from God must still comply with the Law. One way to look at this:
One condition for forgiveness: repentence. God is very willing to forgive, but people have to turn from sin first, to repent. If I were a thief, I couldn't ask God to forgive me, and yet keep on stealing. Like: "God...I know this is wrong, but hey, I gotta make a living, so please forgive me while I pull off this bank heist this morning...". No, I'd have to quit the sin first. Let's say (for the sake of this discussion) that 1000 people were directly, or indirectly, responsible for the crucifiction. And let's say that a day after Jesus died on the cross, half of them are remorseful and realize they made a mistake. This half, sorrowfully and humbly, ask God to forgive them. They repent. Let's say the other half NEVER feel sorry for what they did. They feel they were right. They do not repent. They insist they were right. They eventually go to their graves, never having asked for forgiveness.
Do you feel God forgave ALL of them? Regardless of repentence, or not? Or just the half that turned, repented, and came to Him, and asked to be forgiven? I believe Jesus intent was for God the Father to forgive ALL those involved in the crucifiction, who would later come to Him, repent, and ask for forgiveness...to be forgiven. IE: not to make involvement in the crucifiction the "unpardonable" sin. So yes, God answered Jesus' prayer...
Bud
Hmmm...not sure if I get what your saying. Short answer-yes, I do feel that God forgave them all. The rest is just too hypothetical. I do appreciate the response.
Imo, He was refering to the fact that they did not know they whom they were crucifying, if they had known they would not have crucified them. Bud answered the rest the way I would have.
Wow, did I screw up. I didn't mean that He was asking for everyone for all time. My point was that He asked God to forgive them there at that time. If God answered that prayer, that means he forgave them there at that time without them having to ask for forgiveness. We are traditionally taught that one must ASK God for forgiveness in order to recieve it. (Although He tells us to forgive whether asked for it or not, but I digress ) God is not a respector of persons, yet this means (according to traditional Christianity) that God did indeed forgive those people without them asking for it, but doesn't do that for us.
Does that make more sense?
I think there is a difference in Him releasing people from culpability from one particular sin vs. giving them a total pardon from all the sins of their lifetime.
Wow, did I screw up. I didn't mean that He was asking for everyone for all time. My point was that He asked God to forgive them there at that time. If God answered that prayer, that means he forgave them there at that time without them having to ask for forgiveness. We are traditionally taught that one must ASK God for forgiveness in order to recieve it. (Although He tells us to forgive whether asked for it or not, but I digress ) God is not a respector of persons, yet this means (according to traditional Christianity) that God did indeed forgive those people without them asking for it, but doesn't do that for us.
Does that make more sense?
I think that I may understand where your going with this now.....I could definitely be wrong, so please forgive me...LOL!
Are you wondering if God predestined those people and knew that He was going to forgive them, that He would also be doing that for us in this day for other types of predestined acts for His purposes? Hmmm....definitely a good question! I would hope He would forgive us, but how are we to know? I guess I'd ask for forgiveness anyway. I hope I'm on track with what your pondering here. I apologize if I'm not getting it.
LuLu
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) God is not a respector of persons, yet this means (according to traditional Christianity) that God did indeed forgive those people without them asking for it, but doesn't do that for us. 
