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There exists within the Godhead, submission. This does not imply inferiority of nature within the Godhead. Only authority. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal. Their respective roles in which the Son submits to the Father, and the Spirit submits to both the Father and the Son have to do with creation and with their plan of salvation.
The word translated begotten is monogenes and means unique in kind. One of a kind. Jesus Christ is the unique Person of the universe. Both eternal and infinite God and true humanity in one Person. Since the incarnation, when God manifested Himself in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16), He has been and will be eternally hereafter, the God-man.
Where Christ is said to be the first born of all creation (Col 1:15), it simply means that Jesus Christ is the heir of all creation. Creation exists for Him. (Heb. 1:2). It in no way implies that the deity of Jesus Christ was created. He Himself is the agent of creation of all that has been created.
Mike
In some areas I agree with you but in others I do not - You are trying to force your beliefs on others by threats........
I agree with you that God has a plan of salvation what i do not agree with is that God is eternally a trinity -- Gods plan was in his Son who he BEGOT what I am saying is that he begat him in a spiritual sense --- and also Jesus was created in the flesh as well, so that he could be our high priest and mediator between man (sown in flesh) and God his Father.
What I see is you changing what things SAY into what you want them to say, or think they should say. What I gather from you is that you believe the bible is inerrant but is also deficient in the words that were used to communicate the message, thinking that the words that were used were somehow deficient and we need you and physical teachers to interpret the deficiencies in what the Holy Spirit was trying to communicate to us, instead of us asking the Holy Spirit what the message is.
You start with your doctrine then you find the scriptures that support your doctrine and those scriptures that do not support your doctrine, you twist them to support your doctrine..............
The words that are used to describe things mean what they say --- If the relationship between God and Jesus is Father and Son, that means God is the Father and Jesus came from him, fathers generate their sons ---- The word is spoken, God spoke and Jesus is the communication.
I do believe that apart from the physical Jesus that was born --- there is a spiritual creation that started "in the beginning", it is his (Christ's) kingdom, and that he is gathering to himself........... this is a spiritual kingdom God has created in Christ, for Christ, through Christ.
What I believe is there is more to it than the traditional trinity teaching just like there is more to eschatology than preterism and futurism..................
Col 1:12 Giving thanks to the Father who did make us meet for the participation of the inheritance of the saints in the light,
Col 1:13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate us into the reign of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body--the assembly--who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things --himself--first,
Col 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
Kat...when I ask you to exegete something, it means just that. Not a rebuttal of opinion and assumption. Prove it with much scripture. Not doing so, is a concession. Your exegesis weighs heavily on your view, and if you can't then your view has no legs, and the reader will understand just that, and side with those that can provide sound exegesis, as we have done. You need to work at it, or else your ministry is moot.
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Notice that her understanding is that the Messiah will explain everything and Jesus agrees that he is the Messiah (anointed one) who will explain everything. It says nothing about her understanding that the Messiah would be God but in fact Jesus simply agrees to be the Messiah who will explain everything IE anagellos which means "to bring back word."
Jesus carried the word from God to them. That is what Jesus agree that he is.
This isn't an exegesis. This is assumption. Provide a detailed, scriptural analysis of this opinion, compare it with other scripture that supports it, or render it useless to the thread.
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So the Jews never understood what you now do? He was charged with insurrection by claiming to be leader of the Jews. He was charged by the Sanhedrin with blasphemy for calling himself the Messiah and son of God. You misread the text IMO due to your trinitarian glasses.
Yes. Most of them did not understand, hence no more temple.
They paid for their crime against Christ.
No Kat, He was charged for using "God only" words.
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I was pointing out that if you are consistent in your literal application of those titles then you would have to admit that Jesus is the Father... the everlasting father.
Ok.....then God is a literal vineyard keeper. Also, He is a literal consuming fire too, or how about a shepherd with literal sheep running around, chasin g that lost one in the literal woods. He is, the divine God who is symbolized by much given to us in the scriptures, and He can meet us on our level in His Son, Helper, and Father....I can go on and on. Just because Christ called Himself the son of God, and prayed to the Father does not support your view, it dismantles it is what it does. It fulfills multitudes of prophecies by what God was going to do, and that is come in the flesh and dwell among His people.
This is first grade Old Testament theology.
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God is the suffering servant? I guess I am confused as to what this is in response to. God is bigger than the earth and the OT is clear about that. In fact, the OT is clear (as is Rev.) that the heavens and earth flee from his presence... he is so vast as to push everything out of the way.
Above is a great example of how much you really know of the scriptures.
You don't understand the core foundation of it.
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The Hebrews did not believe in a trinity of Gods.
Neither do Christians. We believe in one God, who met mankind's need on every level he needed. Saviour, Father and Guide.
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All of which discuss the passage in Exodus as the name of God being Yahweh. The description of Yahweh is "I am that I am" corresponding to Yahweh. I AM is not the name of God nor would they have thought that.
How did Moses reveal who spoke to him when he spoke with Aaron?
Are you really serious here? What part of Who sent you, do you not understand? I am sent Moses, and Christ said Before Abraham, I am.
God words....then they picked up stones...etc.
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Yet you have not proven that Jesus even claimed to be God... so if you want to believe something extraneous to scripture, be my guest! But I choose to follow what Christ ACTUALLY taught!
Actually, all of us have. It is you who hasn't brought forth anything credible just alot of opinionated jargon, with nothing to back it up....words, just words, with no meat. And as a matter of fact, all you have done is discredit your own views and shown us once again, that you don't have the Holy Spirit residing in you. You can't even discern the simplest of parables, let alone the triune nature of Yahweh, elected you aren't it seems. Without Christ in your heart dwelling there as your Groom, you will never have Him in you. Ever.
Your debate with us have nothing to do with you searching for the answer. Your debates with us appear to be malicious in nature, and you are only set on rebelllion, not submission to God's message, and that is He is the Christ, the saviour, the Holy One of Israel.
Throughout these conversations, someone will be elected, when they see how obvious it really is. Some hearts and minds are hardened, and your is one of them IMO, for a greater purpose we will never know.
I will pray to Christ for you. As I already do.
You really need a wake up call. Someone so close to the lampstand, but not a drop of oil left in your flask.
Good post, and I agree. I didn't know URs deny that Christ is God, but apparently they do.
I and the Father are one - John 10:30
You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Thanks. It's amazing how much resistance there is to the truth. There are many who think they know Jesus Christ, but the Jesus they think they know is not the true Jesus.
In some areas I agree with you but in others I do not - You are trying to force your beliefs on others by threats........
I agree with you that God has a plan of salvation what i do not agree with is that God is eternally a trinity -- Gods plan was in his Son who he BEGOT what I am saying is that he begat him in a spiritual sense --- and also Jesus was created in the flesh as well, so that he could be our high priest and mediator between man (sown in flesh) and God his Father.
What I see is you changing what things SAY into what you want them to say, or think they should say. What I gather from you is that you believe the bible is inerrant but is also deficient in the words that were used to communicate the message, thinking that the words that were used were somehow deficient and we need you and physical teachers to interpret the deficiencies in what the Holy Spirit was trying to communicate to us, instead of us asking the Holy Spirit what the message is.
You start with your doctrine then you find the scriptures that support your doctrine and those scriptures that do not support your doctrine, you twist them to support your doctrine..............
The words that are used to describe things mean what they say --- If the relationship between God and Jesus is Father and Son, that means God is the Father and Jesus came from him, fathers generate their sons ---- The word is spoken, God spoke and Jesus is the communication.
I do believe that apart from the physical Jesus that was born --- there is a spiritual creation that started "in the beginning", it is his (Christ's) kingdom, and that he is gathering to himself........... this is a spiritual kingdom God has created in Christ, for Christ, through Christ.
What I believe is there is more to it than the traditional trinity teaching just like there is more to eschatology than preterism and futurism..................
Col 1:12 Giving thanks to the Father who did make us meet for the participation of the inheritance of the saints in the light,
Col 1:13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate us into the reign of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body--the assembly--who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things --himself--first,
Col 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
I'm not trying to force anything on anyone. I am simply laying out the truth of the matter so that the issue is clear. Some will understand it. Many will not listen. This is just fundamental Christianity. I'm not sure if fundamental means what it used to mean, but I'll stick with the word. The fundamentals of doctrine. The fundamentals of the Christian faith. See link...
How any human being can feel justified in telling another human being that they are "not saved" is beyond me. Now if that is not judging, I don't know what is, and we all know what the Bible says about people who judge one another. Who is saved and who is not saved is 100% God's call and anyone who thinks they know the mind of God is, as you say, being "presumptuous and arrogant."
All one has to do is get a red letter version of the Bible, and see how many times Christ refers to doing the will of the Father...and referring to the Father.
Distinct individuals, one in purpose. It is so clear, I can not fathom how some cant see it.
Kat...when I ask you to exegete something, it means just that. Not a rebuttal of opinion and assumption. Prove it with much scripture. Not doing so, is a concession. Your exegesis weighs heavily on your view, and if you can't then your view has no legs, and the reader will understand just that, and side with those that can provide sound exegesis, as we have done. You need to work at it, or else your ministry is moot.
UM... It was your quote. You posted the verse and it doesn't take a genius to figure out what Jesus was claiming to be. I am sorry you feel there must be other verses... I could post many but I am sure I would get the same reaction from you. When you post a verse to prove a point try not to use a verse where the woman did not believe Jesus was God. It is quite obvious.
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This isn't an exegesis. This is assumption. Provide a detailed, scriptural analysis of this opinion, compare it with other scripture that supports it, or render it useless to the thread.
So what is exegesis to you? You use that word so much you have rendered it's meaning (when you type it) useless.
Exegesis: critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, esp. of the Bible.
Which is exactly what I did. And this is a poor response to it.
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Yes. Most of them did not understand, hence no more temple.
They paid for their crime against Christ.
No Kat, He was charged for using "God only" words.
Hmm... seems you didn't read the link. You are saying that the WHOLE understanding of the Hebrews/Israelites about God was completely wrong. And to some extent I would agree. However, they would know if the passage in Exodus meant that Yahweh was God's name or I AM is God's name. If you say that they KNEW when he said "Before Abraham was, I am." that he was claiming to be GOD... yet all it means is that Jesus is the first... even before Abraham.
I don't know why I even try to explain sometimes. It seems as if you want to completely ignore the original people's perspective, then blame it on me for my bad exegesis.
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Ok.....then God is a literal vineyard keeper. Also, He is a literal consuming fire too, or how about a shepherd with literal sheep running around, chasin g that lost one in the literal woods. He is, the divine God who is symbolized by much given to us in the scriptures, and He can meet us on our level in His Son, Helper, and Father....I can go on and on. Just because Christ called Himself the son of God, and prayed to the Father does not support your view, it dismantles it is what it does. It fulfills multitudes of prophecies by what God was going to do, and that is come in the flesh and dwell among His people.
This is first grade Old Testament theology.
Yikes! Jesus didn't need to be God in order to do the will of God, call himself the son of God.. did he or did he refer to himself as the son of man?
Anyway there is no reason for there to be a triune God. You can't even establish why God would need to come in flesh. The Jews didn't believe that God would come in flesh and their own ancestors wrote the very scripture with their own understanding of it!
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Above is a great example of how much you really know of the scriptures.
You don't understand the core foundation of it.
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Neither do Christians. We believe in one God, who met mankind's need on every level he needed. Saviour, Father and Guide.
Which was quite possible for him to do without inhabiting flesh on earth. I am not denying that God is saviour, father, and guide... but to say that he had to be a human in order to be saviour, father, and guide? Why? Establish the core foundation of it.
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How did Moses reveal who spoke to him when he spoke with Aaron?
You can deny it till the cows come home but it will still be: "God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
“Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.’Ex. 3:15-17
The Lord [not I AM]said to Aaron, “Go into the desert to meet Moses.” So he met Moses at the mountain of God and kissed him. Then Moses told Aaron everything the Lord had sent him to say, and also about all the miraculous signs he had commanded him to perform.
Moses and Aaron brought together all the elders of the Israelites, and Aaron told them everything the Lord had said to Moses. He also performed the signs before the people, and they believed. And when they heard that the Lord was concerned about them and had seen their misery, they bowed down and worshiped. Ex. 4:27-31
Just one "I AM" in there (and not the kind you want). The scripture refutes you.
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Are you really serious here? What part of Who sent you, do you not understand? I am sent Moses, and Christ said Before Abraham, I am.
God words....then they picked up stones...etc.
Yikes... read above. They did not call God "I AM" ever... and they don't now!
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Actually, all of us have. It is you who hasn't brought forth anything credible just alot of opinionated jargon, with nothing to back it up....words, just words, with no meat. And as a matter of fact, all you have done is discredit your own views and shown us once again, that you don't have the Holy Spirit residing in you. You can't even discern the simplest of parables, let alone the triune nature of Yahweh, elected you aren't it seems. Without Christ in your heart dwelling there as your Groom, you will never have Him in you. Ever.
You are entitled to your opinion. I see no rebuttal of any kind here.
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Your debate with us have nothing to do with you searching for the answer. Your debates with us appear to be malicious in nature, and you are only set on rebelllion, not submission to God's message, and that is He is the Christ, the saviour, the Holy One of Israel.
IF someone would refute my stance I am perfectly willing to believe in the trinity... I did for 20+ years. However, all my questions are not answered. Nor has the fact that Jesus claimed to be God been established.
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Throughout these conversations, someone will be elected, when they see how obvious it really is. Some hearts and minds are hardened, and your is one of them IMO, for a greater purpose we will never know.
I still don't see how continual election and preterism fit... but I guess that is another thread.
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I will pray to Christ for you. As I already do.
You really need a wake up call. Someone so close to the lampstand, but not a drop of oil left in your flask.
Good post, and I agree. I didn't know URs deny that Christ is God, but apparently they do.
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Originally Posted by little elmer
Don't streotype - this one agrees.
Not to mention that you don't have to be a trinitarian to understand that Jesus is the express image of the Father.
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