Hot Water Heaters (Cincinnati: condo, big house, heat pump)

[WILWRadio]

Has anyone installed a new Tankless Hot Water Heater in their home? I am thinking about swapping my old one out for one of these new deals. I'd like to get some feedback concerning the cost, performance, reliability etc. And can any number of local plumbers install one of these?

[t45209]

This is a seemingly simple question, but the answer can be complicated. There are a lot of variables. In my own experience, I don't think it's worth it, but you be the judge.

First, I would recommend a gas tankless over electric. The electric can only heat about one quarter of the water that the gas models can heat. There can be a real problem with electric being able to keep up with demand, depending on your usage. Also, the draw of electricity, depending on your service, has been known to brown out your house because it pulls so much. Gas, however, can be a tricky installation, because you may have to increase the capacity of your lines, and this can be expensive to retrofit.

The actual energy savings are difficult to measure, because there are too many variables. Perhaps the biggest factor to consider is that it is going cost at least three times more to install a tankless system than the conventional heater, and many question weather you will ever reap the benefits from energy savings.

Also, as you move to a colder climate, these systems have a much more difficult time coping with lower water temperature. Besides the fact that the water may not be as hot as you want in the winter, it will pull a lot of energy to try to compensate.

The final kick in the pants is that the system may wear out long before any saving from energy kicks in. They may last longer than a conventional water heater, but not long enough to save money based on the higher installation cost. One way to save money on installation is to put these in new construction...it's more costly to retrofit.

That's my 2 cents.

[WILWRadio]

Thanks for the detailed perspective. A friend recommended this but he lived in Oklahoma when he installed one at his house. Will wait to see if I get more opinions on this before making a decision. If it is going to cost more than a grand to do then I won't waste the money.

[kjbrill]

I have a friend who installed his own electric one. Of course he was in the electrical supply business for many years and knows more than the average person concerning what is involved. He says it works great and has no problem keeping up with the demands of their two person household. Of course he had the house built and I know installed a very large electric service since he could get all the components at cost. He is in an area with no natural gas and heats/cools the house with a heat pump.

[WILWRadio]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

I have a friend who installed his own electric one. Of course he was in the electrical supply business for many years and knows more than the average person concerning what is involved. He says it works great and has no problem keeping up with the demands of their two person household. Of course he had the house built and I know installed a very large electric service since he could get all the components at cost. He is in an area with no natural gas and heats/cools the house with a heat pump.

Thanks. My friend installed a 12 gpm electric model and didn't have any trouble. But OK is definitely a little warmer in the winter than the Cincinnati area though I'd hardly call it that cold when compared to the winters I experienced while living in Connecticut's interior near Massachusetts or especially northern Maine when I lived there for a winter. Perhaps with a suitable amount of amps in the circuit breaker, electric will work.

[t45209]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

Thanks. My friend installed a 12 gpm electric model and didn't have any trouble. But OK is definitely a little warmer in the winter than the Cincinnati area though I'd hardly call it that cold when compared to the winters I experienced while living in Connecticut's interior near Massachusetts or especially northern Maine when I lived there for a winter. Perhaps with a suitable amount of amps in the circuit breaker, electric will work.

Some state agencies and utilities in states like Idaho and Minnesota actually recommend against tankless heaters, because of the cold water temps. They are much more practical in southern climes.

If you don't have gas service, then electrical is the way to go. I've known these systems to be used with propane with mixed results.

[jlawrence01]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

Has anyone installed a new Tankless Hot Water Heater in their home? I am thinking about swapping my old one out for one of these new deals. I'd like to get some feedback concerning the cost, performance, reliability etc. And can any number of local plumbers install one of these?

I attended the major HVAC show in Chicago about ten years ago. One of the booths that I looked at was the Rinnai Tankless Hot Water Heater, a major Japanese brand that is fairly popular in SoCal. The booth was staffed by major distributors of the brand. The guy I talked to was from the Boston, MA area and he explained it at great length. I tried to get a "ballpark" guesstimate of what the system would cost but he said he wouldn't give me a number without seeing my house.

Fast forward a few years. My hot water is ready to die. I have a local guy talk to me about a new system. The cost for my SMALL condo was $2200. Before I signed up, I wanted some idea of teh cost savings ... The guy looked at me and told me that it would NOT pay for itself - it was the RIGHT thing to do.

I bought a new traditional style.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by jlawrence01

I attended the major HVAC show in Chicago about ten years ago. One of the booths that I looked at was the Rinnai Tankless Hot Water Heater, a major Japanese brand that is fairly popular in SoCal. The booth was staffed by major distributors of the brand. The guy I talked to was from the Boston, MA area and he explained it at great length. I tried to get a "ballpark" guesstimate of what the system would cost but he said he wouldn't give me a number without seeing my house.

Fast forward a few years. My hot water is ready to die. I have a local guy talk to me about a new system. The cost for my SMALL condo was $2200. Before I signed up, I wanted some idea of teh cost savings ... The guy looked at me and told me that it would NOT pay for itself - it was the RIGHT thing to do.

I bought a new traditional style.

There is always the problem of getting a fair price. As I said previously, a friend of mine installed his own. But he is not unfamiliar with tube cutters and a soldering iron to move water pipes, and also knows a lot about electricity, having run an electrical supply business for years. If he needed a new circuit to power the heater, probably not as he was replacing electric, he would simply install it himself as he has no fear of adding a breaker to a circuit panel. Knowing him, I can pretty well guarantee he did spend $2,200 or like you he would have simply replaced the conventional tank. My tank heater is natural gas and I will likely replace it with the same. An instant heat tankless gas model I would expect to be expensive, how else do you coax that much heat out of gas?

[restorationconsultant]

I have clients who installed tankless, if you are "low use" they are ok. The better alternative are the new "heat pump" water heaters. They utilize the already warmer air in the basement as a basis for heat efficiency. Prices have dropped (about a grand plus install), but they may be best way to go if you are concerned about your 'energy footprint'.

The facts are that the best thing you can do is simply insulate every water pipe in your home. They typical water heater has a life of about seven years ( caused mostly due to the anode tube deterioration), Most people put in a 40 gallon tank ( which is why they are not happy) and I always recomend a 50 or 80 gal if you are a big household. If you put an insulation cover on your water heater, plus insulate every line ,it is really the most cost effective way to go.

People spend way to much time listening to "green this and that". Insulating your water lines and HVAC ductwork for that matter, are the two best things any home owner in this climate can do to really save money.

[WILWRadio]

^^^Thanks for the detailed advice from everyone that took the time to write.

Restorationconsultant. I will look into this heat pump idea as well. I am definitely low use when it comes to water. Not married nor a girl friend at this time and so, water usage is minimal. I think I averaged about 2,000 gallons or less each month at my last house. So, perhaps 50 to 70 gallons a day on average.