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Am I a bad person if I see Toronto's theatre scene as an economic achievement as opposed to a cultural one? (And that on the other hand I see Broadway as both a cultural and economic achievement?)
I think it is fair for you to make that statement especially considering the history behind how big production theatre in Toronto came about. When you look at Broadway as a comparison they definitely did not follow similar path's.
Toronto's theatre though has been a cultural success, in the sense that it has enriched the lives of those who can afford to take in high culture on even an occasional basis. I also think it is fair to assume that the development of local and community theater in Toronto and how it has grown over the years is directly tied to this success.
So while Toronto's theatre scene did not come about as organically as other cities, the fact that it is so well supported within the city has to be viewed as a cultural achievement.
Last edited by edwardsyzzurphands; 09-04-2013 at 12:08 PM..
Interesting thoughts, guys. (See how reasonable I am?)
But I wonder why there aren't more Canadian-themed or even Canadian-written musicals, given that the district in Toronto is now fairly mature?
There should be more and this fact is the reason why the original statement you made has merit.
I look at the Huntington Theatre company in Boston and their achievements at the Tony awards; Diane Paulus at the American Repertory Theater in Cambridge, MA and what they did with Pippin before it went to Broadway as examples of how local theatre can make an impact before the big players like NY and London. Why Toronto has not had success sprouting off something similar is beyond me. I guess it still has a ways to go.
While not the same as the musical wing of theatre Toronto can boast their location of Second City and its influence on comedy, which is still a form of performing art. I am not sure how much of that is influenced by big production theatre though.
Last edited by edwardsyzzurphands; 09-04-2013 at 12:38 PM..
^^^ I understand this as well and this is why it is not in the next "tier" up, even though it is "big" so to speak in terms of numbers. That being said, it is still a cultural outlet that is well attended and provides a solid basis to get better and Canadian productions do exist. So I believe there is value in this. But it does suffer from the same issue that music, movies, and TV shows, i.e. the industry is centered in the US so its art form emanates more from there. But I agree, there is room to step up in this respect.
Surely, if tiny PEI can produce a decent and enduring musical about Anne of Green Gables, a comparative behemoth of a scene like Toronto's should be able to produce some original Canadian productions at least every once in a while.
Surely, if tiny PEI can produce a decent and enduring musical about Anne of Green Gables, a comparative behemoth of a scene like Toronto's should be able to produce some original Canadian productions at least every once in a while.
Didn't even consider Anne of Green Gables, good example.
Am I a bad person if I see Toronto's theatre scene as an economic achievement as opposed to a cultural one? (And that on the other hand I see Broadway as both a cultural and economic achievement?)
I think the more commercial large scale foreign productions would represent a more 'economic' scene.. Once you start getting into locally produced and homegrown talent spurring its own unique and local flavour than it would be unfair to dismiss it (which many in here would do because they have no clue about the content or what is actually happening in Toronto). Anyway Toronto is strong in both the big and the small.
I'm happy to go see a play at the above as much as I'm inclined to see something at the Mirvish Monster theatres. I think its fair to say however, that Toronto's theatre scene is big not just because of big productions from outside the place.. Its a pretty eclectic scene actually and all the richer for it.
Agreed all around, I was going to rep you but I need to spread it around. Yes no matter how much we disagree I still show love, haha.
There is a simple solution to all this though, the population in Toronto needs to not only view immigrants as a source of flavor but rather as their professional peers. Its great that people can enjoy the festivals, restaurants, grocery stores, art and music...but at the end of the day people come there to work and better themselves financially. Trust me those Indian and Pakistani doctors would trade in a dozen restaurants for an opportunity to practice medicine in the city of their choice.
Employers need to start respecting foreign credentials and taking advantage of the human capital they have right under their noses. We all know that Toronto is great for allowing you to retain your culture, but falls short when it comes to truly assimilating newcomers into everyday life professionally. This is not my opinion either, it is very well documented.
I don't find we disagree on most things actually.. I do find at times when it comes to Toronto - even the positive aspects of the place you seem to always put a negative spin on.. which is ok if it is based on facts and how you feel - It just seems like Toronto is the only city on your hit list and that sometimes your conclusions are incomplete...Sure Toronto could do better but you know what - people flock to the city and from all over and that is something that can't be discounted. There must be something about the place...otherwise they could always relocate to other places in Canada or beyond...
I think there are some political considerations when it comes to immigrant assimilation that need to change in terms of recognizing and assisting those with foreign cred.. From what I've read the country is moving in that direction more and more so it would obviously provide benefit to all Canadian cities.
Attitude is something different however and I think that is the area we are both speaking of. This will take time but we all have a role to play in changing this for the better. My feeling is things are changing for the better - I actually live in Toronto - am part of a minority group so i'm seeing improvements.. Anecdotal yes but as I said, I have seen things improve in my own workplace and I know who I work with and its a pretty International crowd much more so than a decade ago.
I don't find we disagree on most things actually.. I do find at times when it comes to Toronto - even the positive aspects of the place you seem to always put a negative spin on.. which is ok if it is based on facts and how you feel - It just seems like Toronto is the only city on your hit list and that sometimes your conclusions are incomplete...Sure Toronto could do better but you know what - people flock to the city and from all over and that is something that can't be discounted. There must be something about the place...otherwise they could always relocate to other places in Canada or beyond...
I think there are some political considerations when it comes to immigrant assimilation that need to change in terms of recognizing and assisting those with foreign cred.. From what I've read the country is moving in that direction more and more so it would obviously provide benefit to all Canadian cities.
Attitude is something different however and I think that is the area we are both speaking of. This will take time but we all have a role to play in changing this for the better. My feeling is things are changing for the better - I actually live in Toronto - am part of a minority group so i'm seeing improvements.. Anecdotal yes but as I said, I have seen things improve in my own workplace and I know who I work with and its a pretty International crowd much more so than a decade ago.
Just to veer off course for a moment. Something interesting that I have noticed on this forum is that from what I gather (based on posts and comments) the majority of the regular Toronto posters are either A) Born and raised in Toronto or at least have lived there the majority of their lives or B) Natural born Canadians that relocated to Toronto from elsewhere in Canada. So with that in mind me being someone who immigrated to Canada/Toronto and eventually immigrated elsewhere around the world after, I am naturally going to have a different perspective and view on the city you call and have always called home. It does not mean that either of our opinions are more/less valid that each others, but chances are our experiences are different and that will naturally shape our outlook on things.
Also there are a couple other regular members who catch alot of flack for speaking "negatively" about Canada and Toronto and it just so happens that they are also people who immigrated to Toronto and have lived elsewhere. Is it not interesting that the posters who are perceived as negative are people who came from elsewhere? Just something to think about. If you truly want to speak about diversity, then you also have to accept a diversity of opinions as well.
Now back to the topic, yes there has been improvement in this arena, but it has been slow moving and not forceful enough. I tend to use the example of medical professionals often because it is the field I work in. I travel around the world and work with medical personnel in both developing and developed countries so I see first hand how talented these Doctors and Scientists are and how shockingly equal or superior their level of care is to Canada. So it baffles me that it has taken this long for people to realize how much they are wasting the talent around the city with ridiculous reciprocity requirements. Chances are your cab driver or Tim Horton's cashier is just as capable of diagnosing you with an ailment as your Canadian educated physician. So yes once again it is getting better, but don't allow immigration numbers cloud what really happens on the ground once these immigrants arrive in your city. It is not as simple as that.
Just to veer off course for a moment. Something interesting that I have noticed on this forum is that from what I gather (based on posts and comments) the majority of the regular Toronto posters are either A) Born and raised in Toronto or at least have lived there the majority of their lives or B) Natural born Canadians that relocated to Toronto from elsewhere in Canada. So with that in mind me being someone who immigrated to Canada/Toronto and eventually immigrated elsewhere around the world after, I am naturally going to have a different perspective and view on the city you call and have always called home. It does not mean that either of our opinions are more/less valid that each others, but chances are our experiences are different and that will naturally shape our outlook on things.
Also there are a couple other regular members who catch alot of flack for speaking "negatively" about Canada and Toronto and it just so happens that they are also people who immigrated to Toronto and have lived elsewhere. Is it not interesting that the posters who are perceived as negative are people who came from elsewhere? Just something to think about. If you truly want to speak about diversity, then you also have to accept a diversity of opinions as well.
Now back to the topic, yes there has been improvement in this arena, but it has been slow moving and not forceful enough. I tend to use the example of medical professionals often because it is the field I work in. I travel around the world and work with medical personnel in both developing and developed countries so I see first hand how talented these Doctors and Scientists are and how shockingly equal or superior their level of care is to Canada. So it baffles me that it has taken this long for people to realize how much they are wasting the talent around the city with ridiculous reciprocity requirements. Chances are your cab driver or Tim Horton's cashier is just as capable of diagnosing you with an ailment as your Canadian educated physician. So yes once again it is getting better, but don't allow immigration numbers cloud what really happens on the ground once these immigrants arrive in your city. It is not as simple as that.
To the first two paragraphs.. well the same could be said about the latest places you have adopted as home.. Are they perfect? Of course not but would you be levelling the same objective criticism of the place as you would for a place that you left. In my opinion, no you do not based on what I've read of your posts. Your first inclination - even about the Toronto arts and theatre scene is to find something - anything to take away from its prominence in favour of Boston even though Toronto has an extraordinarily rich local arts scene - instead lets grasp on why it doesn't have as famous a musical as Boston.. You didn't even counter what you said about where Toronto is strong in arts and culture - just that it doesn't have a Tony award winning Musical like Boston.
Generally speaking - when I speak of Toronto I do convey what I feel is true of the place. Do I spill the beans about what it offers more than other cities - of course I do because I'm more familiar with it than other places. Does it mean i'm not well travelled - of course not I've been to quite a few places - but am I proud - Sure I am and there are a lot of wonderful things to love about it. Yes I know you and some others have left, but there are PLENTY of those who stay and have adopted the place as their home and love it. You don't have to be born in Toronto to love it.. Are you saying Toronto is a forced compromise for most who move here? That they live here because they have no choice? Some are in that situation but I'm sure most aren't.
Now I admit I have been guilty from time to time of levelling unjust criticism of other places (I am human) I certainly do not go out of my way to find fault with places i'm not totally familiar with. So again, of course we need to respect negative criticism any place - but in your case make sure it is objective and isn't so one sided at times... It seems to me you sway back and forth based on mood.. One minute you praise the place.. the next minute you come down hard and relentlessly on It like it is your mission to destroy.
To the last paragraph.. While I agree that there needs to be behavioural changes in the establishment through education and open mindedness -I'm not sure that is the fault of the city of Toronto as much as it is the policy of the federal government in terms of recognizing foreign credentials. I've levelled more than enough criticism against it as you know btw.. including its slashing of funding to tourism that you mocked... Aside from that, I have also addressed the fact that the immigrant won't get things handed to them on a silver platter anywhere... blood, sweat and tears - now that'll get you somewhere. Don't forget that many immigrants who are driving those taxi's and serving those coffee's are not looking to forward their own careers (even if some of their own education and cred is actually recognized and would require some more schooling) because they are working to either bring their family to Canada or to get their children through school - in essence they are sacrificing their careers for those of their children. Not all immigrants are the same... Those headed to Boston may be going specifically to advance their own careers - those headed to Toronto could be doing it for their kids!
Having said all that - i'll say again there are people from all walks of life who are thriving in their careers in Toronto right now... I know them as friends, I know them as coworkers....Some in the medical field who are happy with the pay they get and don't need to move away to make more than what they already comfortably make. In my own case, even if I were offered a job elsewhere making more money than I make now, I would not leave the place that i'm rooted in.. where my family and friends are and in a place I love.. it has provided me with more than enough already. Hey if you leave because it isn't working out for you than fine I respect that and am not judgemental about it - the place didn't work for you and you found a better fit elsewhere.. it is what it is. I work with a woman who moved away from Boston so the pendulum doesn't swing one way.
Last edited by fusion2; 09-05-2013 at 08:37 PM..
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