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The issue is that Toronto defines itself by its diversity so when someone says diversity not unique, then this is taken as a swipe against the city by some. That being said, Toronto is one of the most diverse cities out there and moreso than Chicago, that's indisputable. Does having more immigrants necessarily make a city better? It definitely adds flavor but it can also dilute flavor as well if there's isn't social cohesion. I'm also not sure if there is a perfect model of diversity, as that's very subjective. But Toronto is a very congenial place for most people from all walks of life, not to say Chicago is not international either because I think it qualifies as such.
Stepping back, what is most noticeable is that Chicago has more Black and Hispanic people and Toronto has more Chinese and Indian populations, so what? We can't say having X is better than Y or that having a lower % of white people makes a city better. I believe there are benefits to diversity but there's no perfect 'mix' or 'model'. Personally, I feel the local culture of how people interact & socialize with each other to be more important when I go somewhere. I find Chicago to be a little more friendly and outgoing but Toronto is more peaceful, relaxed and less class conscious (but this last point is changing lately).
This is actually very well stated. Toronto is undeniably diverse, hyper diverse even. What I do not understand is why people wont just enjoy this diversity in a natural manner and let it speak for itself. This "my city is more diverse than others" thing has always come across as off-putting to me and it screams of a population that is not truly comfortable with who it is. Because at the end of the day why do you need to constantly speak about something that is supposedly part of your community's fabric?
I can say this is something I have come to appreciate about Londoners, they live in a hyper diverse city but are still so comfortable about it that it is never a topic of conversation and they appreciate that this trait is not unique to their city. Just my take.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
Toronto has always struggled to define its personality as a city - this is still true today to some degree.
And so diversity has emerged as an obvious trait of the city and people have latched onto it.
But because diversity has filled a need that many people in Toronto have long had with respect to their civic identity, they sometimes go overboard with it and can claim that somehow this is a uniquely Torontonian characteristic.
I agree that this struggle to define itself has resulted in this strange response to diversity. At the same time though, this is the largest and most influential city in the country, it really does not need this to define itself. People need to just enjoy the fact that they get to meet people from around the globe in their everyday lives, but also appreciate that many others across the globe can say the same.
For example you living across from Ottawa, being the government town it is, I am sure you see many different types of people and run into them on a daily basis both personally and professionally. I can also assume that you have access to whatever type of food you could possibly want for the most part. Can someone from Toronto say to you that you have been deprived of this cultural experience because you do not live in Toronto, NYC or London? Many of them will think that, but it is not the case.
I agree that this struggle to define itself has resulted in this strange response to diversity. At the same time though, this is the largest and most influential city in the country, it really does not need this to define itself..
Totally agree. Although one of the reasons for the identity crisis is that Toronto can be uncomfortable with certain Canadian identity traits or cultural icons. Especially if they don't originate or at least very directly correlate with Toronto - diversity is a good example of this, as it is both a Torontonian and Canadian trait, and there is even a perception in certain circles that Toronto sort of "invented" it. So it works.
But in most countries, the metropolis' identity feeds off the national one, and the national one feeds off the metropolis. This is not so much the case in Canada, as Toronto has a bit of "culture cringe" with many things typically Canadian.
For example you living across from Ottawa, being the government town it is, I am sure you see many different types of people and run into them on a daily basis both personally and professionally. I can also assume that you have access to whatever type of food you could possibly want for the most part. Can someone from Toronto say to you that you have been deprived of this cultural experience because you do not live in Toronto, NYC or London? Many of them will think that, but it is not the case.
Certainly, there is more than enough for the average couple to sample of a weekly or monthly basis on two upper middle class salaries.
And as a general statement, I often find that the importance of having access to a multitude of stuff in cities is overrated at least when it comes to how much local residents can and do take advantage of.
It reminds me of a friend of mine who was a Prairie girl who moved to Ottawa in her late teens. Ottawa was for her was a big city with lots of stuff. She was forced to move to small-town Ontario (far from Ottawa or Toronto) for her husband's job, and complained bitterly all the time she was there - she missed the National Arts Centre, the Byward Market, etc. All this big city stuff (for her).
And when I (innocently, I swear) pointed out to her that she had never gone to see a play, or a classic musical concert, and could go years without setting foot in the market, she responded "sure I know, but it's nice to have it in your mind that's all there if you want it - even if you don't take advantage of it".
I've actually said on 3 occasions in this thread that I voted for Toronto over Chicago, because personally it would be the city I would choose to live in between the two. The only "bashing" when it comes to Toronto is the food scene and how it compares to Chicago.
I am not the one who is participating in those threads on the Toronto board about how its impossible to make friends in Toronto or the women in Toronto suck. I focus on topics that mean something to me like race relations, restaurant scene, etc..Also Toronto comes across to me as a city that preaches diversity at every single opportunity possible but covers over the BS it puts the foreign born population through to acclimate to this so called perfect model of diversity.
If something like that offends you, then I would say youiTuDe have the problem, not me.
like y0ur aTtituDe......
and your adeptness at making English nearly incomprehensible....is oddly impressive.
"""""I am not the one who is participating in those threads on the Toronto board about how its impossible to make friends in Toronto or the women in Toronto suck.""""
Brilliant. Chicago grew into its current mega-juiciness cause its various peoples refused to honor such gobbeldy-****.
and your adeptness at making English nearly incomprehensible....is oddly impressive.
"""""I am not the one who is participating in those threads on the Toronto board about how its impossible to make friends in Toronto or the women in Toronto suck.""""
Brilliant. Chicago grew into its current mega-juiciness cause its various peoples refused to honor such gobbeldy-****.
Totally agree. Although one of the reasons for the identity crisis is that Toronto can be uncomfortable with certain Canadian identity traits or cultural icons. Especially if they don't originate or at least very directly correlate with Toronto - diversity is a good example of this, as it is both a Torontonian and Canadian trait, and there is even a perception in certain circles that Toronto sort of "invented" it. So it works.
But in most countries, the metropolis' identity feeds off the national one, and the national one feeds off the metropolis. This is not so much the case in Canada, as Toronto has a bit of "culture cringe" with many things typically Canadian.
Certainly, there is more than enough for the average couple to sample of a weekly or monthly basis on two upper middle class salaries.
And as a general statement, I often find that the importance of having access to a multitude of stuff in cities is overrated at least when it comes to how much local residents can and do take advantage of.
It reminds me of a friend of mine who was a Prairie girl who moved to Ottawa in her late teens. Ottawa was for her was a big city with lots of stuff. She was forced to move to small-town Ontario (far from Ottawa or Toronto) for her husband's job, and complained bitterly all the time she was there - she missed the National Arts Centre, the Byward Market, etc. All this big city stuff (for her).
And when I (innocently, I swear) pointed out to her that she had never gone to see a play, or a classic musical concert, and could go years without setting foot in the market, she responded "sure I know, but it's nice to have it in your mind that's all there if you want it - even if you don't take advantage of it".
While that is true, I do think you have people with the means to move wherever take advantage of these things. While I don't think most city data posters are full of the means, they do often get opportunities from time to time to afford it, and probably take advantage of a lot of the stuff. Maybe not opera, but definitely museums, theater, food scene, car free life styles, etc. My gf and I make less than 100k combined and travel out of town every month for instance and usually these places are over 5 hours away. Of course we often have people we know to stay with or do it on the cheap, most of the costs is the travel expense itself. Many of my friends are also kind of travel junkies. It's one of the reasons we are looking for an east coast relocation b/c it would actually save us money on travel expenses for our lifestyles and where we want to visit, even if the rent is higher. I know other people into nature trips, or constantly going to shows... While many people dont' go to opera, most of the people I know are into *Something* that couldn't be provided by from a smaller city, but is available in places like nyc, dc, chi, sf, etc. Those that don't, have tended to move back home closer to their family, or out to the suburbs... But still plenty of us DINK's or one kidders out there that enjoy city life...
While that is true, I do think you have people with the means to move wherever take advantage of these things. While I don't think most city data posters are full of the means, they do often get opportunities from time to time to afford it, and probably take advantage of a lot of the stuff. Maybe not opera, but definitely museums, theater, food scene, car free life styles, etc. My gf and I make less than 100k combined and travel out of town every month for instance and usually these places are over 5 hours away. Of course we often have people we know to stay with or do it on the cheap, most of the costs is the travel expense itself. Many of my friends are also kind of travel junkies. It's one of the reasons we are looking for an east coast relocation b/c it would actually save us money on travel expenses for our lifestyles and where we want to visit, even if the rent is higher. I know other people into nature trips, or constantly going to shows... While many people dont' go to opera, most of the people I know are into *Something* that couldn't be provided by from a smaller city, but is available in places like nyc, dc, chi, sf, etc. Those that don't, have tended to move back home closer to their family, or out to the suburbs... But still plenty of us DINK's or one kidders out there that enjoy city life...
I can appreciate all of that.
I do think that at some point (or size) a decent-sized city does have "most" of the stuff that can cater to most people's tastes. And these discussions about which city has the most "stuff" is more about choosing where to vacation than it is about choossing where to live.
With relatively few exceptions, I'd say the life of the average New Yorker wouldn't change *that* much if he or she moved to Chicago, Boston or... Indianapolis even. (I realize I will probably get killed for saying this.)
With relatively few exceptions, I'd say the life of the average New Yorker wouldn't change *that* much if he or she moved to Chicago, Boston or... Indianapolis even. (I realize I will probably get killed for saying this.)
My lifestyle changed quite a lot moving from NYC to Boston actually.
And not trying to *kill* you on this but "stuff" can build culture, character and vibe in a city as well. I agree this whole I have more of X than you or my X is bigger than yours is silly and doesn't matter much in day-to-day living after a certain point. But "stuff" does add to a city in many ways. For e.g. the fact that the UN is located in NYC doesn't impact one's life as a New Yorker directly but housing a center-stage for (most) of the world to come together brings intangible benefits to the city. Every country will have representatives there, will buy residences there, will visit regularly, will spend money there, will feed on and engage in other amenities of the city, will demand top notch dinning and theatres, will meet and interact with locals in the city, and will attract best and the brightest-types to the city via institutions and think tanks to support world power brokers. It raises the profile of the city and makes things more interesting and exciting through many different ways. This is just an example but I wouldn't underestimate the power of *stuff* on a city even if individuals may not partake in them directly.
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