Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Also, Chicago's "El" has abysmal frequencies. On the Toronto subway scheduled headways are never longer than 5 minutes. On Chicago's "El" they reach like 15 minutes. I think they may even reach 20 minutes at times. Can't recall right now. Toronto's subway also carries WAY more people than Chicago's El.
Well unless, of course, you want to take the subway after 1:30 am...
Yeah they reach 15 after midnight as!e as new York and both have 24 7 lines on heavy routes
But Toronto's still run every 5 minutes after midnight. In fact, they run every 5 minutes until they stop at around 2:30am. After that there are buses every 3-4 minutes replacing the Yonge line, and every 5 minutes replacing the Bloor-Danforth lines. And after 2am traffic is so light that the buses are almost as fast as the subways are during the day. Only about 2-3 MPH slower on average.
Chicago's "El" also has abysmal ridership numbers. Only 730,000 boardings per day in Q2 2013 over 114 route miles. Toronto's subway, with only 42 route miles, did 940,000 boardings per day in Q2 2013. IOW, Chicago's El is nearly three times as long, serves a much larger population (there are stops in the suburbs, which Toronto does not have), yet does LOWER ridership numbers.
In fact, to what I said prior about the TTC ALONE doing more boardings than Chicago's CTA, METRA, and PACE COMBINED, here are the Q2 2013 daily boardings:
And that doesn't include GO Transit (over 200,000 boardings per day), Milton Transit, Oakville Transit, Burlington Transit, Mississauga Transit (around 170,000 boardings per day), or Durham Regional Transit. If you add all them in, you're in the 3.3-3.4 million boardings per day range. That's well over 1 million more boardings per day, with a way smaller population base.
Metro Chicago's 11.5% transit share is so low in fact, that it barely beats out Canada as a whole (11.0% in 2011).
For whatever reason, people in Chicago just don't like to ride public transit, and the numbers I've presented in this post prove it.
That is mostly b/c one city is in Canada and car ownership is more expensive there. I agree that when riding the El it is often pretty empty sometimes, it could hold tons more people. There is no doubt Toronto is better about public transit, but most western countries that aren't the U.S. are like this also. By no means would I say Toronto's system is better though. That's like discounting Chicago's immaculate lakefront bike path b/c Portland has way more bike riders as a percentage. To give an idea of how good the el is though, I haven't used a bus in Chicago since last summer. And I have taken the el after hours many times. The red line is very convenient considering many chicago bars are open until 4am and it's a big nightlife city.
That is mostly b/c one city is in Canada and car ownership is more expensive there.
I've never heard that car ownership is more expensive here in Canada. Do you have a link for that?
Relatively speaking, car ownership is much cheaper here in Canada. Gas is a little more expensive, but public transit fares are WAY higher than the US. Nearly twice as high on average. Standard single fare is $3.00 on the TTC. It's $6.00 for a downtown express bus. According to the CTA website, single fare on CTA is only $2.00 for the bus, $2.25 for the El. And some of Toronto's suburbs are even more expensive, with $3.25 single fare.
Quote:
By no means would I say Toronto's system is better though.
It's far better than Chicago's system if you value service frequency. And it's not just the subway either. Toronto has bus/streetcar routes that run at scheduled headways of 2-4 minutes not just during rush hours, but midday as well. The 510 Spadina Streetcar for example has scheduled headways never longer than 3 minutes from 7:30am - 9pm. You can see for yourself here:
Chicago doesn't come close to that kind of frequency on any routes. MAYBE during rush hours, but not for 13.5 hours a day.
The only advantage Chicago really has (besides cheaper fares) is more miles of El/subway than Toronto's subway. But the service frequency on Chicago's El is awful, and far fewer people ride it. I suspect so few people ride it BECAUSE of the terrible service frequency. They should run it 5 minutes or less for the entire length of every line from 6am - 2am like Toronto does. They'd probably get a lot more ridership.
The difference between transit ridership in Chicago and Toronto is WAY too large to just discount and say that Toronto doesn't have a better transit system. 11.5% transit share to 23.3% transit share is a MASSIVE difference.
A lot fewer people ride the El in Chicago because the system is strongly supplemented by bus routes that often run perpendicular and complementary to the train system. Besides, Chicago is an easily-navigable city with ample parking in its core; while some abhor the idea, others find it extremely convenient, and gas isn't at a cost-prohibitive price even in the city. The amount of riders has virtually nothing to do with frequency--there are those that embrace taken public transit, and there are those that don't. Those that don't aren't going to magically change their minds because the Pink line runs every 5 minutes instead of every 10 minutes.
I'm not sure that percent transit share really drives home much of a point, especially when it is metro-wide and the Toronto CMA and Chicago MSA differ pretty largely in population. If the point is that fewer people in Joliet or Kenosha take public transit than in Mississauga, then okay. In the U.S. there is only one area that has a metro-wide public transit ridership greater than 20%, and that's the New York metro.
The pluses that the CTA has going for it are greater track coverage in the city, cheaper fares, and the two busiest train lines running 24/7. As an avid public transit user, to me being able to get to my destination is more important than shaving 2 minutes off my morning commute because my train only comes every 5 minutes instead of 3 minutes. Greater ridership doesn't necessarily equal a better system. Of course, that's an opinion, but everyone's entitled to their own.
Last edited by Maintainschaos; 11-30-2013 at 04:50 PM..
I've never heard that car ownership is more expensive here in Canada. Do you have a link for that?
Relatively speaking, car ownership is much cheaper here in Canada. Gas is a little more expensive, but public transit fares are WAY higher than the US. Nearly twice as high on average. Standard single fare is $3.00 on the TTC. It's $6.00 for a downtown express bus. According to the CTA website, single fare on CTA is only $2.00 for the bus, $2.25 for the El. And some of Toronto's suburbs are even more expensive, with $3.25 single fare.
It's far better than Chicago's system if you value service frequency. And it's not just the subway either. Toronto has bus/streetcar routes that run at scheduled headways of 2-4 minutes not just during rush hours, but midday as well. The 510 Spadina Streetcar for example has scheduled headways never longer than 3 minutes from 7:30am - 9pm. You can see for yourself here:
Chicago doesn't come close to that kind of frequency on any routes. MAYBE during rush hours, but not for 13.5 hours a day.
The only advantage Chicago really has (besides cheaper fares) is more miles of El/subway than Toronto's subway. But the service frequency on Chicago's El is awful, and far fewer people ride it. I suspect so few people ride it BECAUSE of the terrible service frequency. They should run it 5 minutes or less for the entire length of every line from 6am - 2am like Toronto does. They'd probably get a lot more ridership.
The difference between transit ridership in Chicago and Toronto is WAY too large to just discount and say that Toronto doesn't have a better transit system. 11.5% transit share to 23.3% transit share is a MASSIVE difference.
^Excellent post.
Yes Chicago's El has more miles of track, more stations etc, but that doesn't always equal having a better transit system. Sometime people forget to think about the other stuff that makes efficient transit:
-headways between trains/buses.
-overnight service.
-ease of use.
-transferring to other buses/train routes.
-connections (to landmarks, point of interests, schools, hospitals, stadiums, shopping, office buildings etc)
-comfort.
-cleanliness
-ongoing construction projects/extensions/expansions
-etc.
For example, almost every major shopping mall/shopping district in Toronto is connected to a TTC subway station or is less than a 2 minute walk from one. Fairview Mall (Don Mills Station), Scarborough Town Centre (Scarborough Centre Station), Yorkdale Shopping Centre (Yorkdale Station), Dufferin Mall, Yorkville, etc. and the list goes on. Sherway is the only major mall I can think of that is not connected to a subway station.
Also, all 3 universities in Toronto are connected to a subway station with the exception of York U, which will be connected in 2016 when the new extension opens.
When you look at the overall picture, TTC might come out on top which explains why more people use it than the CTA. But again, most people just look at how many train stations one city has and use that as a measuring tool and forget about everything else.
[quote=mrjun18; again, most people just look at how many train stations one city has and use that as a measuring tool and forget about everything else.[/QUOTE]
Conversely, some people just look at ridership numbers and think that is the whole story, doesn't really seem like people speaking about the cta really know what they are talking about
^Excellent post.
Yes Chicago's El has more miles of track, more stations etc, but that doesn't always equal having a better transit system. Sometime people forget to think about the other stuff that makes efficient transit:
-headways between trains/buses.
-overnight service.
-ease of use.
-transferring to other buses/train routes.
-connections (to landmarks, point of interests, schools, hospitals, stadiums, shopping, office buildings etc)
-comfort.
-cleanliness
-ongoing construction projects/extensions/expansions
-etc.
For example, almost every major shopping mall/shopping district in Toronto is connected to a TTC subway station or is less than a 2 minute walk from one. Fairview Mall (Don Mills Station), Scarborough Town Centre (Scarborough Centre Station), Yorkdale Shopping Centre (Yorkdale Station), Dufferin Mall, Yorkville, etc. and the list goes on. Sherway is the only major mall I can think of that is not connected to a subway station.
Also, all 3 universities in Toronto are connected to a subway station with the exception of York U, which will be connected in 2016 when the new extension opens.
When you look at the overall picture, TTC might come out on top which explains why more people use it than the CTA. But again, most people just look at how many train stations one city has and use that as a measuring tool and forget about everything else.
Well yeah but that is not the case for Chicago. Chicago isn't San Francisco or something. Honestly I think you Toronto guys are kind of crazy arguing this point
Well yeah but that is not the case for Chicago. Chicago isn't San Francisco or something. Honestly I think you Toronto guys are kind of crazy arguing this point
What do you mean by chicago is not sf? And what was I saying that you are disagreeing with?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
