Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Manhattan crushes every city downtown in the US. Second place Chicago's downtown is very small size-wise compared to Manhattan. Chicago geographically is just smaller, resulting in fewer people and less everything.
No US city even comes close to Manhattan. And the vibrancy is coming back decently well in many areas. COVID has hit every downtown pretty hard, and Manhattan was not immune.
But many areas are coming back. I work in the Empire State Building and my commute to work is very similar to what it was pre-COVID, in terms of people everywhere. The building itself is a little quieter, but overall, not much difference to the commute or the area surrounding Empire.
Yeah to each their own I guess. However, if I had to redo my list it would go (Without the Miami bloating I did).
1. New York City
2. Chicago
3. San Francisco
4. Boston
5. Washington DC
6. Philadelphia
7. Seattle
8. Miami
9. Los Angeles
10. Tossup of many major cities. (ATL, SD, etc)
Seattle depends on what you include as downtown. The South Lake Union (Amazon and biomedical) and Belltown area is still pretty vibrant but the traditional downtown downtown CBD is pretty dead now since Covid and has seen a big increase in loitering and sketchy people. Went to a few other cities recently including Chicago and Midtown Manhattan and got similar vibes in the CBDs.
Not sure when these traditional CBDs will come back if ever.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
7,409 posts, read 6,553,115 times
Reputation: 6685
Quote:
Originally Posted by CXT2000
Okay so,
1. 98% leased but even Canadian cities during curfews and restrictions had more life than Brickell and BCC. Even then, the complex takes away life from the street level activities because in the end, it's a mall. Also, rent per square foot does not equal a vibrant, world class, pedestrian heavy downtown. There's zero correlation. You see that in Brickell because the people in that area are loaded and there's still a high percentage of foreign owned units that are empty majority of the time. 830 Brickell, that is still surprising given downtown Miami overall only has 15M sq ft of office space (with the CBD having a 26% vacancy rate, Brickell at 8%). Again, one major office tower, the first in more than a decade, does not mean anything.
Citadel moving is a big one, but a world class downtown is more than just real-estate development for rich people and firms. If it's not mix-use, inclusive, pedestrian friendly, diverse in offerings, green, still car oriented, lacks closed off streets, etc.. It's not a world class downtown. Miami has some positives, but it lacks cohesion and still feels like a stale Sunbelt city. I always laugh at the "NY of the South" stuff, because there's nothing spectacular or standout about the downtown.
2. Proximity to other neighbourhoods is good, but something I noticed more about Miamians is how much more often they have to drive 15-20 minutes for other experiences, restaurants and bars. To me, that's another indicator that the downtown is not world class or top-10. Of course, it is normal to have other cool areas of a city with unique offerings, but the downtown experience is still lacking there.
3. I was with investors in Miami a few weeks ago, I gave them the grand tour of my old neighbourhood (Brickell) and they were stumped that a city was hyped about during covid was dead quiet on a Saturday night. You had pockets of life in Brickell, but the rest of the downtown area was dead. We went to Wynwood, which I get is part of the "greater downtown area" (let's be honest, it isn't) and there was more activity happening there, but not as much as when I was there I find. Yes, changes happened and the city boomed, but downtown specifically feels the same. All those 60-80 floor towers, all those new investments, all the hype, tourism, etc... it all felt the same, looked the same. Miami has amazing marketing and they're good at selling the city, but you can never fool people who lived there for decades and urban savvy people.
At the end of the day, I'm not nocking Miami or anything, but I will always say (and am not "scared" to say) that the downtown is overhyped and there's a centre of the universe mentality there, that has unfortunately multiplied with the covid boom. I get it's a young city but at the same time, if it developed the downtown properly and not bent the knee to foreign investors who aren't there 80% of the time, it may as well have been a top 5-7 downtown by now. But no, they dropped the ball hard with each boom and even if you build multiple TOD's and high density neighbourhoods, so are every other downtown areas globally. So I personally think the downtown will stay bottom 10 and a top 15 downtown for the foreseeable future.
And yet most people I know in Brickell “live in a bubble” and spend the majority of their time here without feeling the need to leave the area. I live in a bigger bubble by incorporating the Grove, Gables, River and Design District into my repertoire but certainly could get by with the amenities here (restaurants, retail/grocery/drug, movies, gyms, shopping, nightlife, etc) if my circle got smaller—which I’m about to test by going car free shortly. Not sure where you went, or did not go, on a weekend night. Sugar/Tea Room, Cantina La Veinte, Komodo, Rosa Sky, Marion, El Tucan, Empire Social Lounge, Socialista, South Miami Ave, etc keep me fairly entertained. It’s not South Beach, mind you, but that’s but a 15-20 minute Uber ride away (without need to find parking and/or drive home imbibed) the fewer and fewer times I hit there….Ditto for E11even in downtown (not my scene)….clearly, other Miamians living in the burbs such as Hialeah, Pembroke Pines, South Miami etc will be more dependent upon the 15-30 minute drives for more options and excitement that you described….and let’s not pretend those who live in other, bigger, more vibrant cities never wander 15-20 minutes to other neighborhoods within their respective cities.
Last edited by elchevere; 08-18-2022 at 10:15 AM..
Seattle depends on what you include as downtown. The South Lake Union (Amazon and biomedical) and Belltown area is still pretty vibrant but the traditional downtown downtown CBD is pretty dead now since Covid and has seen a big increase in loitering and sketchy people. Went to a few other cities recently including Chicago and Midtown Manhattan and got similar vibes in the CBDs.
Not sure when these traditional CBDs will come back if ever.
I think more 'off center' downtowns in big cities have made a strong comeback. Ie, New York. Midtown Manhattan is dirty and desolute at times, whereas Brooklyn and the Lower East side have come back more than ever. In Boston, the Back Bay and Faneuil Hall area (I guess a secondary CBD??) has died, literally. In exchange, the Seaport District, the South End and Camberville have come back stronger.
Im not too familiar with cities outside NYC and Boston from pre and post covid. But generally thats the trend im seeing.
When I was last in Seattle (ehh 2017?) it was pretty bustling.
Yeah to each their own I guess. However, if I had to redo my list it would go (Without the Miami bloating I did).
1. New York City
2. Chicago
3. San Francisco 4. Boston
5. Washington DC
6. Philadelphia
7. Seattle
8. Miami
9. Los Angeles
10. Tossup of many major cities. (ATL, SD, etc)
I'd place Philadelphia solidly ahead of DC. Ahead of Boston too, but I know you won't like that.
But SF needs to get itself together, it feels behind Boston, DC, Philly in terms of Covid recovery (per my recent work visit), but I'd still rank it #3.
I was just in Boston for 3 days enjoyed the city a lot, and I will be in Philadelphia all weekend, excited to see the vibe (haven't been since April). Chicago was awesome per my July visit. DC was meh in June, but I always feel that way about it.
I'd place Philadelphia solidly ahead of DC. Ahead of Boston too, but I know you won't like that.
But SF needs to get itself together, it seems behind Boston, DC, Philly in terms of Covid recovery (per my recent work visit).
I was just in Boston for 3 days enjoyed the city a lot, and I will be in Philadelphia all weekend, so I am excited to see the vibe (haven't been since April). DC was meh in June, but I always feel that way about it.
I pretty much grouped them together because they can be interchangeable depending on day/time of year/what is going on. I just haven't seen Philly full of energy like I want to. Like I've said in the past, maybe I just have visited on random/outlying experiences.
Right now SF is probably behind Boston or Philly, but I think it will rebound and this could be just a blimp in its radar. I have heard absolutely nothing good about SF recently, which does scare me.. however, I think having an economy so dependent on tech post-covid with the availability of WFH, it will take a while for this niche market city to rebound with return to office, additional biotech/pharma and financial services. I could be wrong...
Did you go to the St. Anthony's festival in the North End?
I think more 'off center' downtowns in big cities have made a strong comeback. Ie, New York. Midtown Manhattan is dirty and desolute at times, whereas Brooklyn and the Lower East side have come back more than ever. In Boston, the Back Bay and Faneuil Hall area (I guess a secondary CBD??) has died, literally. In exchange, the Seaport District, the South End and Camberville have come back stronger.
Im not too familiar with cities outside NYC and Boston from pre and post covid. But generally thats the trend im seeing.
When I was last in Seattle (ehh 2017?) it was pretty bustling.
Midtown Manhattan has always had certain areas that are desolate--at certain times. Even Pre-Covid. But overall, taking the entire midtown district into account--no downtown in the US matches it. Maybe parts of Chicago, but Chicago has the "quiet after 6pm thing" going on a lot in areas of their downtown.
I don't think you can compare any downtown region to Manhattan - it's apples and oranges.
Also, the dirty piece, well, yeah, I mean, NYC has always had a grimy element to it--garbage and grime on certain high trafficked areas. I guess that's the trade-off you get in a city of almost 9 million folks
NYC is coming back well--after COVID. I go into the city 2-3 times every week, and each time, more and more is opening, the tourists are back full-force and folks are out and about.
I'd say the areas that tend to be quieter at certain times are the more corporate-focused districts in midtown. But still, the foot traffic is pretty consistent.
Midtown Manhattan has always had certain areas that are desolate--at certain times. Even Pre-Covid. But overall, taking the entire midtown district into account--no downtown in the US matches it. Maybe parts of Chicago, but Chicago has the "quiet after 6pm thing" going on a lot in areas of their downtown.
I don't think you can compare any downtown region to Manhattan - it's apples and oranges.
Also, the dirty piece, well, yeah, I mean, NYC has always had a grimy element to it--garbage and grime on certain high trafficked areas. I guess that's the trade-off you get in a city of almost 9 million folks
NYC is coming back well--after COVID. I go into the city 2-3 times every week, and each time, more and more is opening, the tourists are back full-force and folks are out and about.
I'd say the areas that tend to be quieter at certain times are the more corporate-focused districts in midtown. But still, the foot traffic is pretty consistent.
Midtown Manhattan was substantially busier pre-covid. Substantially. Like I was saying, COVID shifted foot traffic a lot... in every city.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
7,409 posts, read 6,553,115 times
Reputation: 6685
Quote:
Originally Posted by masssachoicetts
Midtown Manhattan was substantially busier pre-covid. Substantially.
I’m in agreement with you. I usually stay somewhat nearby at The Edition (Madison Sq Park) but on my most recent trip to NYC in June stayed in Williamsburg, instead, and preferred the vibe / street activity there.
There is certainly a combo is size and car ownership. Chicago is pretty significantly higher than the DC/Bos/SF crowd in car commute share
I also think Local population post 2020 comparatively helps Chicago and Philly, hurts DC and has little impact on Bos/SF in teens of downtown proper
Local population hurts DC? What do you mean?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
