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We are both on a totally different path with our thinking and that is ok.
Is Austin a top 10 downtown? No Top 20? No
What are you comparing it to?
Are the prices in Downtown Austin sustainable? No Give it 5 years.
I think it's absolutely top 20, no question. I lean toward no on top 10. I think it is (barely) in the top 10 of the cities that I have visited, but there are enough major US downtowns that I have missed to give me doubt that I would have it top 10 if including those.
But, obviously this is subjective. DC was one example of a big city that I didn't find to have a particularly interesting downtown at all, and other posters disagree. I'm ok with that. (Nothing against DC as it is a really cool city in a beautiful area).
I think it's absolutely top 20, no question. I lean toward no on top 10. I think it is (barely) in the top 10 of the cities that I have visited, but there are enough major US downtowns that I have missed to give me doubt that I would have it top 10 if including those.
But, obviously this is subjective. DC was one example of a big city that I didn't find to have a particularly interesting downtown at all, and other posters disagree. I'm ok with that. (Nothing against DC as it is a really cool city in a beautiful area).
You have maybe a dozen cities that lay anywhere from 9-22.
A handful of old school rust belt cities (Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati), large sunbelt cities (Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Miami) mid sized west coast cities (San Diego, Denver, Portland, Sacramento) and tourist centric entertainment centers (Austin, New Orleans Nashville)
Most of them could make an argument for number 10. But I also think any of them could be number 21. Depending on what you personally value. Except maybe Miami who really can only bottom out at maybe 12 realistically.
My sentence could have been cleared. I wassaying DC has more high clubs than Austin or Nashville, which are more frat bro oriented. The bachelorette and frat bro was in reference to Nashville and Austin. You certainly get some of that in downtown DC. But not like Nashville or Austin which have nightlife streets overflowing with people.
I get a lot of people don't like Austin or Nashville type nightlife scenes. But the streets (in the relatively small nightlife districts) are objectively busier than anywhere in Downtown DC at night.
Understood and they are different in that way. Downtown DC much like most international cities is not a bar hopping scene. That is reserved for areas outside the CBD. Frankly, those types of places can’t afford the rent in the CBD of international cosmopolitan cities. Bottle service pays the rent. I think I’ve seen lists with the top clubs in DC clearing $40 million+ a year.
The rent really isn't the issue. It's more that office landlords etc. don't WANT nightclubs in their buildings. They don't fit physically, for liability, or for their noise and disorder.
You have maybe a dozen cities that lay anywhere from 9-22.
A handful of old school rust belt cities (Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati), large sunbelt cities (Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Miami) mid sized west coast cities (San Diego, Denver, Portland, Sacramento) and tourist centric entertainment centers (Austin, New Orleans Nashville)
Most of them could make an argument for number 10. But I also think any of them could be number 21. Depending on what you personally value. Except maybe Miami who really can only bottom out at maybe 12 realistically.
Completely agree with your point about #9-22 being fairly even in general but I wouldn't typecast Austin as "tourist centric entertainment center". It's a robust downtown from an employment standpoint, especially relative to the metro size which is smaller than most of the cities listed here. (over 100k people working downtown).
Though, I suppose you could make that argument for New Orleans and Nashville as well to some extent? Overall it feels weird penalizing those three for being more than just office parks.
Understood and they are different in that way. Downtown DC much like most international cities is not a bar hopping scene. That is reserved for areas outside the CBD. Frankly, those types of places can’t afford the rent in the CBD of international cosmopolitan cities. Bottle service pays the rent. I think I’ve seen lists with the top clubs in DC clearing $40 million+ a year.
You realize that downtown Austin is more expensive than downtown Washington DC for both office and residential, right?
To me the difference is not price but more that Washington DC has other exciting urban neighborhoods that have cool things going on. Downtown is a place where people primarily go to the office 9-5. Whereas most of Austin is much more sleepy and suburban and thus more of the fun things are concentrated downtown and in the downtown adjacent zip codes.
Well, fun is also relative. Black people definitely prefer flashy when they party. They aren’t going to bars that play country or rock so this is probably a question that is answered among racial lines. Whether talking about NYC, DC, or Atlanta, Black people have always partied at clubs historically and DC is a Black city. Austin, Nashville, and Philadelphia aren’t cities that cater to Black people or mentioned as hot spots for Black cultural nightlife so nobody is really wrong here. If you pay attention to “who” (meaning the majority) is walking around the nightlife districts in different cities, that would probably explain “who” thinks which city is fun.
I think it’s important to always keep that perspective because it does change the answer here. I’m pretty sure some people posting in this thread would never be on U street at the spots at 9th and U street like MK Lounge smoking hookah for instance and U street is packed with people every weekend.
Point well taken here.
Philly actually has a good bit of Black culture and nightlife, but it doesn't dominate the scene the way it does in DC, the whitening of "Chocolate City" notwithstanding.
The rent really isn't the issue. It's more that office landlords etc. don't WANT nightclubs in their buildings. They don't fit physically, for liability, or for their noise and disorder.
Yeah, Downtown DC is mostly office buildings and federal buildings. It doesn't really have the warehouses and the older 4-5 story brick buildings with narrow store fronts that tend to favor restaurants, nightlife, boutiques, etc. There is a little around Conn Ave/M Street and7th and H. But DC isn't really centralized around a center city type area like Chicago, Philly, Toronto, London, etc. The nightlife is in the neighborhoods north of downtown, the shopping is in Georgetown, the big destination dinning is increasingly in Wharf, Union Market, etc.
To me the difference is not price but more that Washington DC has other exciting urban neighborhoods that have cool things going on. Downtown is a place where people primarily go to the office 9-5. Whereas most of Austin is much more sleepy and suburban and thus more of the fun things are concentrated downtown and in the downtown adjacent zip codes.
You do realize that leases unless up for renewal predate 2023 right? COVID has changed rent which is a really good thing for DC’s nightlife and retail future. Do you know how much rent was in 2010-2019 for these businesses? It’s already proving beneficial as many tenants that couldn’t afford the barrier for entry into downtown DC are now opening spots. This is especially true for people of color with tons of new restaurants and retail that is minority owned.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 10-09-2023 at 12:13 PM..
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