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Canadian usually compare Toronto to Chicago - similar city population, geography, weather, but are they indeed close?
As a resident of Toronto and frequent visitor of Chicago, I don't think Toronto is already where Chicago is now, or even was 10 years ago. Chicago does have its own problems and is losing population, but it still is a much wealthier, more beautiful city with better infrastructure, especially transit and waterfront. I don't have exact numbers, but I would think Chicago has more financial jobs than Toronto as well. Chicago has a much larger downtown core as well. To me, Chicago just looks like a league ahead of us.
On the other hand, I tend to think Philadelphia is more of a closer peer to Toronto. Metro population is similar (5.6M), GDP is similar (3.8bn -Philly vs 3.2bn-Toronto). The "feel" of Toronto is probably closer to Philadelphia than to Chicago too. I know Philly has been decline (if I am not mistaken) and Toronto is kind of booming (construction everywhere), but Philly is a well established city for centuries and has been America's top 10 city since inception of the country. Plus, Toronto's largely gritty appearance in the core area does remind me more of Philadelphia than the much prettier and taller Chicago.
What do you think?
Really late on this, but interesting perspective from a Toronto resident.
I think there was another thread where it was claimed that Toronto actually has a much larger metro population than Philadelphia-I did a search and couldn't find any data to support that so its good to hear a Canadian weigh in on this. Also notable, as you point out, that Philly has a significantly larger gross metropolitan GDP than Toronto.
I agree, Philadelphia and Toronto are uncannily close in some important metrics!
Toronto absolutely is destroying Chicago on transit. Post covid, the CTA has pretty much self destructed. TTC eclipses CTA ridership even tho Chicago has like 3x the stations. The Yonge Line in Toronto has almost triple the Red Line ridership in Chicago with again, far less stations. Toronto is currently building like 3 different subway lines currently, meanwhile the only transit expansion (which still hasn't happened yet, still in planning) is a measly 4 station red line extension on the southside that has been in talks for decades and wont make much of a dent on ridership. Chicago can't even get proper BRT running. The CTA is currently ran by a guy who doesn't give a damn about the platform. CTA, for decades USA's #2 transit system behind NYC, has been passed by freaking DC in ridership. A city way smaller. pathetic.
And the average income in Toronto is 58,000 vs 34,000 in Chicago...idk how someone can say Chicago is wealthier when Toronto is WAYY more expensive than Chicago and there's far less poverty in Toronto. The worst places in Toronto is heaven compared to Chicago's worst.
More beautiful city, I'll give you that. Chicago definitely has better architecture both downtown and in the neighborhoods. there's more missing middle housing in Chicago meanwhile in Toronto it goes from towering highrises to single family homes quick. Chicago also has a way better lakefront for sure (I wish they would bury atleast some of LSD, Chicago could have some real nice beaches if they did that).\
More financial jobs? Eh, thanks to our anti-business mayor/leadership, freaking Dallas has recently surpassed Chicago in financial jobs. Many companies are leaving Chicago due to this.
To your last point, I would say Chicago and Philly have way more in common than Toronto and Philly. Honestly, Toronto has zoomed past Chicago and Toronto is looking at NYC as its competitor now. Both NYC and Toronto are throwing up highrises like crazy, something Chicago and Philly aren't doing. You see innovative and futuristic projects happening in NYC/Toronto. You don't see that in Chicago/Philly nowadays. Toronto and NYC are cities of the future.
And no, Toronto metro population is more like 10 million and its city population is at like 3 million now. Canada measures metro population differently than USA.
And lol at Chicago not being gritty. Go outside of downtown and the northside and grit is pretty all you're gonna see outside a handful of neighborhoods pal.
It's an interesting question. And one that makes me realize how badly I want to re-visit Toronto. I haven't been in many years, despite it being closer to my hometown in Upstate NY than is NYC.
I've read before that Toronto's built environment is more similar to Philadelphia's than Chicago's. Doing a little google maps tour, I am just not seeing it. Generally, Toronto's streets aren't as narrow as ours. There are some rowhomes in Toronto, but they do not dominate entire sections of the city as do ours. Also, the style of rowhomes (perhaps more accurately called townhomes outside of the rowhome region) reminds me of those I'd see in places like NYC or Chicago. It's not the Philly style. Our style is blocks of uniform homes with no setback mostly built in the very early 20th century or earlier.
The neighborhoods in Toronto look more reminiscent of something you'd see in Chicago. There are neighborhoods with Bungalow style housing with more setback, wider streets, and gentler intersectioning.
If we're comparing at a city level, I'd reckon Toronto and Chicago are closer to peers. If we're comparing at a metro level, I'd reckon Toronto and Philadelphia are closer to peers.
And no, Toronto metro population is more like 10 million and its city population is at like 3 million now. Canada measures metro population differently than USA.
And I'd qubble with your statement that metro Toronto has a population of 10 million.
That figure is the population of the entire Greater Golden Horseshoe, Canada's largest urban region, which rings the western end of Lake Ontario and touches Lake Erie at its western end. This includes the separate metropolitan areas of Hamilton and Fort Erie.
This would be akin to combining the Philadelphia and New York MSAs into one single metropolis. Or more accurately, it's akin to what the U.S. Office of Management and Budget calls a "combined statistical area,", which is an agglomeration of two or more MSAs and µSAs ("micropolitan statistical areas"; the Canadian counterpart is the "census agglomeration"). Canada has no CSA equivalent.
Since I haven't familiarized myself on how Statistics Canada defines census metropolitan areas vs. the OMB's criteria for defining metropolitan statistical areas (which is based on commuting percentages), I can't say whether the Toronto CMA would or would not be bigger using the US criteria. What I can say is this: The Ontario provincial government also defines a territory it calls the Greater Toronto Area, which includes the three regional municipalities bordering the City of Toronto (Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto, 1954-1998) and the regional municipality of Halton further west. The GTA covers a bit more territory than the Toronto CMA. Its population as of the 2021 census was 6,711,985 — about half a million more than the 6,228,701 people the Census Bureau estimated lived in the Philadelphia MSA that same year.
Still, that's closer to the population of Greater Philadelphia than it is to the population of Chicagoland.
And the Toronto CMA, which includes some communities not in the GTA but also omits some that are, has a population nearly identical to that of the Philadelphia MSA: 6,202,225.
However, the Greater Golden Horseshoe is a good bit larger than the Philadelphia-Reading-Camden CSA, whose 2021 estimated population was 7,366,346.
^Well that makes Chicago/Philly look even worse than. A metro the population of Philly (which Atlanta and Miami both surpassed this year, Philly is barely growing), has the feel of a metro twice its size. Toronto feels way bigger than both Chicago and Philly. It has over 100+ cranes dotting its skyline. Again, start comparing Toronto to NYC, not the former.
^Well that makes Chicago/Philly look even worse than. A metro the population of Philly (which Atlanta and Miami both surpassed this year, Philly is barely growing), has the feel of a metro twice its size. Toronto feels way bigger than both Chicago and Philly. It has over 100+ cranes dotting its skyline. Again, start comparing Toronto to NYC, not the former.
Because it is larger at city level. A fairer comparison would be Montreal vs. Philadelphia which has already been done. Maybe Boston Vs Montreal Vs Philadelphia. But for this thread, Chicago is closer to Toronto.
^Well that makes Chicago/Philly look even worse than. A metro the population of Philly (which Atlanta and Miami both surpassed this year, Philly is barely growing), has the feel of a metro twice its size. Toronto feels way bigger than both Chicago and Philly. It has over 100+ cranes dotting its skyline. Again, start comparing Toronto to NYC, not the former.
Toronto is not even remotely close to being a peer of NYC.
Toronto and Chicago are largely peer cities, whether it pleases you or not.
Do people still think Chicago has better infrastructure/transit than Toronto?
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