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yankee means either new englander, northerner, or American.
According to what?
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Within the US it refers to people originating in the northeastern US, or still more narrowly New England, where application of the term is largely restricted to the descendants of colonial English settlers in the region.[1] Outside the US it is used to refer to people from the US in general.
This is how I've always applied the term (and it's how I've always heard it applied in the States). But this is not really a material issue in the grand scheme of our debate.
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It does NOT mean northeasterner. And I think that folks from the far west are more northern than southern, in this day and age.
Do you know what people from the West are? They're Western. You're not "northern" or "northeastern" by virtue of the fact that you're not southern. Just like I'm not Canadian by virtue of the fact that I'm not Finnish. I don't know why you believe that "not southern" equals "northern," but you believe what you believe.
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
They have northernized NoVa. But they have not made it like South Jersey, which is a strawman.
No, it's not a strawman.
Northern Virginia is not some variation of the Northeast (which is basically what you believe, even though you fudge it a bit by saying "northern"). It is demographically, economically, politically and culturally very different from the Northeast (and most of the Midwest for that matter). If there is one city we can say definitely straddles the fence between northern and southern, it's Baltimore, not DC (and definitely not Northern Virginia), as Baltimore has many of the characteristics of a true northeastern city (post-industrial, ethnic enclaves, strong labor history, etc.). And even Baltimoreans are not completely agreed on whether they are southerners or northerners, little less Washington, DC, which was definitely a southern city up until the 1970s.
Washington, DC could at its best be described as a transient city that blends the culture of various regions together and at worst part of the New South or "Up South."
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
They are CULTURAL hallmarks.
Are cannolis cultural hallmarks, too?
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
You continue to A. neglect the irishness of two NovA congressman, the italianness of the leading loudoun county reactionary. And the WASPNESS of of lots and lots of northeasterners. And to identify northeasternness with heavy industry - again making detroit northeastern, but not New hampshire.
This is by far the worst argument you've put forward thus far. You can't have an "A" without a "B" by the way.
Northern Virginia has about as much Italian and Irish identity as Seattle or Portland have West Indian identity. Which is, to say, virtually none.
The Northeast is not monolithic anymore than the Southeast is. The Northeast cities (Boston, Providence, NYC, New Haven, Trenton, Newark, Philly) have common histories and a common economic trajectory that made them industrial capitals and centers of commerce when the DC area was largely agrarian. These differences made the Northeast very different culturally and demographically from the South. History does shape our present-day state of affairs no matter how much some of you may wish to brush it to the side.
And no, heavy industry is not the only thing that makes a city northeastern.
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
Possibly, though I still think NoVa (and DC and Md) are more connected to the northeast.
"Connected to the northeast" does not mean "northeastern" lol.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 02-19-2013 at 04:45 PM..
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Originally Posted by CountryFisher
Atlanta of course. DC was southern at one time but has vanillaed itself to become like NYC and Boston, etc. sad but true. The whole Arlington-DC, and the states of Maryland & Virginia have all changed from southern to vanilla. The major cities of North Carolina appear to be going down the same path.
But thus is what "professionals" and hipsters want so I guess there's no stopping it unfortunately.
Virginia as a whole state definitely has not vanilla'd itself. Outside of D.C. it is still very much a part of the South.
So prior to 1848 the northeastern cities were not northeastern? Vermont is not northeastern? Chicago, OTOH, IS northeastern?
Your set of northeastern charecteristics are not the historic markers of either New England or other northeastern regional identity - they are, more or less, the charecteristicsof large industrial cities in the USA. Period.
This is such a ridiculous argument. What makes northeastern cities northeastern cities is not the events that transpired at one point in time. It's the way the cities were shaped economically and demographically over the course of three centuries.
In the 18th Century, Boston, NYC and Philly were major shipping centers, centers of commerce, etc. DC barely even existed.
By the eve of the Civil War, these were the three largest cities in the country. They also experienced heavy waves of Irish immigration around this time. DC was a hick town full of yokels from Southern Virginia. It was an agrarian city while the other the cities of the northeast were beginning to build heavy industry.
Not to mention that DC, Maryland and Virginia had this little thing called slavery not that long before the war. Philadelphia, on the other hand, was the first "free" city on the Underground Railroad.
By the early 20th century, NYC and Philly were bustling metropolises attracting boatloads of Italian, Irish, Polish and Jewish immigrants from Europe. DC was still a sleepy little southern town. In the meantime, NYC, Boston, and Philadelphia began to develop much of the political machinery that still plays a large (if not dominating role) in the politics of those cities today.
By the mid 20th Century, the northeastern cities were highly industrialized and dominated by ethnically-charged machine politics. DC was starting to grow as a largely white-collar town and was still very southern. And Jim Crow reigned supreme.
By the 1970s, DC had started its transformation from a southern city to a future J. Crew catalog full of transplants from Oregon and Michigan.
So yeah, it's the history, geography, industry and demographics that make these cities what they are, buddy. It's no coincidence that Philadelphia and New York have the two largest Italian populations in the country the same way it's no coincidence that states like Maryland, Alabama and South Carolina have some of the highest percentages of African Americans (Maryland actually has a rather large rural black population, which is unlike any other state in the Northeast).
I'll say this once again - economically and politically, most of Maryland and NoVA are tied with the Northeast. Linguistically, they have General American accents, typical of the Lower Midwest and areas with a high transplant and/or immigrant population. Climate-wise, they straddle the border between North and South (similar to St. Louis, Kansas City, etc. I guess).
DC is solidly Mid-Atlantic. Not truly Northeastern, but far from Southern.
This is such a ridiculous argument. What makes northeastern cities northeastern cities is not the events that transpired at one point in time. It's the way the cities were shaped economically and demographically over the course of three centuries.
In the 18th Century, Boston, NYC and Philly were major shipping centers, centers of commerce, etc. DC barely even existed.
Georgetown was a fairly important port in the 18th century. It wasn't a major center, but it was there. DC's population was Top 10 in 1820.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
By the eve of the Civil War, these were the three largest cities in the country. They also experienced heavy waves of Irish immigration around this time. DC was a hick town full of yokels from Southern Virginia. It was an agrarian city while the other the cities of the northeast were beginning to build heavy industry.
DC had a lot of Irish refugees in the mid-19th Century. Irish Catholics did not settle much in the South, but they did go to DC. The main neighborhood was Swampdoodle, which was destroyed to make room for Union Station in 1907. The other big neighborhood was Georgetown (with spillover into Foggy Bottom). They were primarily employed constructing the C&O Canal (which linked DC economically with the Great Lakes like many other Northern cities).
These neighborhoods did lose their Irish character largely because DC is a transient city. No one stays too long. But the fact remains that Irish Catholics came to DC and they didn't go South.
Germans also moved into Georgetown and Foggy Bottom and set up shops in the current Penn Quarter.
You can also use this to find ethnicities: Measuring the U.S. Melting Pot - Interactive Heritage Map - Bloomberg You can compare ethnicities (say Irish vs. English or German vs. English). High numbers of Italians is really a Boston to Philadelphia thing. Irish goes down to DC. Germans to NoVa.
Broadly, DC's population boom really coincided with the Civil War. It was top 15 in 1900 and kept climbing (jumping ahead of San Francisco during WWII). The population plummeted after the race riots, but that doesn't discount what was before.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Not to mention that DC, Maryland and Virginia had this little thing called slavery not that long before the war. Philadelphia, on the other hand, was the first "free" city on the Underground Railroad.
Several points on slavery.
1) Delaware had slavery.
2) New Jersey had slavery until 1846, but had indentured servants for life for some Blacks. Slavery didn't truly end in New Jersey until 1865. New Jersey was the 32nd state to ratify the 13th amendment (ahead of Texas and Delaware, but behind Georgia).
3) Philadelphia was a very free city, but New York was not. There were lots of slavecatchers (Blackbirders) who had business ties to the South. The Evening Post reported in 1860, "The City of New York belongs almost as much to the South as to the North." New York also had some of the most violent protests against the war and the draft of any state in the Union (possibly only topped by Baltimore).
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
By the mid 20th Century, the northeastern cities were highly industrialized and dominated by ethnically-charged machine politics. DC was starting to grow as a largely white-collar town and was still very southern. And Jim Crow reigned supreme.
Jim Crow reigned supreme because DC can't control its own laws. It was implemented by President Woodrow Wilson, so it happened much later than the Black Codes of the South. Offices were desegregated under Truman, so it ended sooner as well.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Northern Virginia is not some variation of the Northeast (which is basically what you believe, even though you fudge it a bit by saying "northern"). It is demographically, economically, politically and culturally very different from the Northeast (and most of the Midwest for that matter). If there is one city we can say definitely straddles the fence between northern and southern, it's Baltimore, not DC (and definitely not Northern Virginia), as Baltimore has many of the characteristics of a true northeastern city (post-industrial, ethnic enclaves, strong labor history, etc.). And even Baltimoreans are not completely agreed on whether they are southerners or northerners, little less Washington, DC, which was definitely a southern city up until the 1970s.
I had a mockingbird in my backyard growing up in the Philadelphia suburb. Annoying little birds.
Anyway, most of those things that apply to Baltimore apply to DC. They're basically in the same state.
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
You continue to A. neglect the irishness of two NovA congressman, the italianness of the leading loudoun county reactionary. And the WASPNESS of of lots and lots of northeasterners. And to identify northeasternness with heavy industry - again making detroit northeastern, but not New hampshire.
Yep. Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont are definitely primarily English. Ethnic diversity is a Bos-Wash thing, not a Northern thing (speaking strictly of the East Coast).
Anyone who thinks Atlanta is purely southern has never been there. Almost no one from Atlanta is from there. I lived in Atlanta for 20 years, and I was always shocked to find a native born Atlantan. Atlanta through and through doesn't have a culture at all. Its a very generic city in every shape of form, basically molded by transplants. Atlanta has consistently had transplants from everywhere in the country for the last 35 years. The transplant population far outnumbers the native population. And the native population is only a generation or two deep. I swear I meet more people from NYC in ATL than people from ATL.
When I speak of Atlanta, I speak in terms of the metro area. In terms of the metro area, while it does have a lot of transplants, native metro Atlantans still equals about one-half of the population. When you add in Georgians from other parts of the state, as well as other southerners, the native southern population is upwards of close to two-thirds of the population.
In your circles, you may not run into many natives, while in my circle, here in the northwest suburbs, almost everyone I interact with and communicate with is a native.
Uh where? The only place you will hear a southern accent in Atlanta these days is in south Atlanta or some places on the west. Those are the only places that still have a reasonable amount of natives. The major population centers in Atlanta are the Northern and Northwestern suburbs where you will definitely not hear any accent. You go north of Buckhead and the accent almost completely disappears.
Stop with the nonsense. I live in the northwestern suburbs, and while there are a number of people with no appreciable accent, there are a majority in my area that at least have a noticeable southern accent. If you're talking east Cobb, I'll agree with you. If you're talking north Fulton, I'll agree with you. If you're talking basically the area of the northside between I-75 and I-85, where most transplants live, I'll agree with you. However, this basically relates to east Cobb, North Fulton, South Forsyth, and West Gwinnett.
If you're outside of the above areas, it is very common to hear southern accents, in places such as West Cobb, out toward Dallas Highway, in Paulding County, in Douglas County, in South Cobb County, in Cherokee County, in Bartow County, in South Gwinnett, in Rockdale County, in Newton County, in Coweta County, in Clayton County, in South Fulton County, in much of Fayette County, as well as Henry County. Perhaps you're living in your own little area that you don't realize just how many natives live in Atlanta. Here's a hint, there are about 2.5 million native Metro Atlantans that go back more than two generations.
"Atlanta is a city shaped and molded by transplants" I find that hard to believe. While there's plenty of transplants in ATL, I doubt Northerners mold the culture and are predominant. There is a strong BLK Southern upper/middle/poor, college educated, white-collar, blue-collar, culture in ATL. I think ATL BLK transplants come from Miami, NYC, LA, CHI, DET, and other parts of GA and the South almost equally in numbers.
You do realize that the South as a whole had the largest population increase this past decade, right? For the South to grow, that means that people had to move to the South from somewhere that's not the South, right (unless the explosion in population is solely attributable to immigration and high fertility rates, that is)?
My brother and his family live in an Atlanta suburb that's not much different from the one you live in now. Nobody's from the area. My niece and nephew only go to Turner Field when the Phillies play and there are usually as many Phillies fans in the stadium as there are Braves fans. I mean, how can a city that added two million people in a mere two decades not be full of transplants? The Census data tells us that this is the case.
As the economy gets back on track, I'm sure the Atlanta area will continue to "northernize" as some of you would say.
As many Phillies fans as Braves fans? This is lying nonsense. Very few Phillies fans, relative to the stadium as a whole. You might get between five and ten percent of the stadium. That is not "as many Phillies fans in the stadium as Braves fans". Consider that the Braves have a huge draw across the South, that draws not only locals, but people from the rest of Georgia, the Carolinas, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, Tennessee, and Virginia.
Most of my neighbors are natives. Only one family in my portion of the street are transplants. Technically, it's half a family, as the husband is a native southerner. You see, I don't know where your brother lives, but if its Alpharetta, I might be able to see your point. However, that town, or whatever town in which your brother lives, is not representative of the region as a whole.
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You're not "northern" or "northeastern" by virtue of the fact that you're not southern. Just like I'm not Canadian by virtue of the fact that I'm not Finnish. I don't know why you believe that "not southern" equals "northern," but you believe what you believe.
