Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And also remember about half of Atlantic county NJ population is about 15 miles from Philadelphia proper then there is the pine barrens that are non-developed and a national preserve until you reach the beach. Dover DE is more removed than is Atlantic city.
Atlantic city itself is only 50 minutes from Center City; has a direct rail connection etc.
Mercer and Trenton (were part of the MSA less than 15 years ago) are not even included in the Philly MSA or CSA yet 15 miles from Philadelphia proper and developed with density (above 7K ppsm the full way).
If anything I would say the Philly CSA and MSA may be a little under-counted though on the whole I think most CSAs are a stretch and MSAs are better.
Even the Bay where I do believe the whole inner Bay functions much more like a MSA; the broder CSA includes another 2.5+ million that are further afield as well. To me a better comparator of the Bay area is the inner bay which would be about 6.4 million as opposed to 8.5 million
Yea but that implies that Walnut Creek, Santa Rosa Antioch, Brentwood, Oakley, Tracy etc are somehow separate and growing as their own metros or something which isn't true. Santa Rosa is getting commuter rail to the San Francisco ferry, Oakley/Brentwood are getting ebart commuter rail, Tracy is on ACE to South Bay (with connections to BART for SF service). The Capitol Corridor kind of acts like commuter rail between San Francisco and Solano Counties (connections to BART and buses). I feel like understanding the Bay Area requires understanding the unique geography that have pushed its suburban areas to far away places.
Mercer and Trenton (were part of the MSA less than 15 years ago) are not even included in the Philly MSA or CSA yet 15 miles from Philadelphia proper and developed with density (above 7K ppsm the full way).
Mercer/Trenton is part of the NYC metro area. You can't just take adjacent parts of a metro area and count it as part of Philly.
Yeah, I get that NY and Philly metros are adjacent, but the rules are the same for both, and if you want to "count" nearby NY counties as part of Philly than it makes as much sense for NY to "count" nearby Philly counties as parts of NY.
Mercer/Trenton is part of the NYC metro area. You can't just take adjacent parts of a metro area and count it as part of Philly.
Yeah, I get that NY and Philly metros are adjacent, but the rules are the same for both, and if you want to "count" nearby NY counties as part of Philly than it makes as much sense for NY to "count" nearby Philly counties as parts of NY.
I don't think KidPhilly ever said it wasn't part of the NYC area. Here is something you need to understand about Mercer County, NJ. Even though Mercer County was added to the NYC CSA not too long ago, it has always been culturally tied to the Philly area. Mercer County is still part of the Philly media market and still remains a major employment hub for the Delaware Valley. You could even make a strong argument that more people from the Philly area commute to Mercer County for work than they do the newly added counties of Berks(PA) and Kent(DE). Disassociating Trenton from the Philly area would be like disassociating San Jose from the Bay Area.
I don't think KidPhilly ever said it wasn't part of the NYC area. Here is something you need to understand about Mercer County, NJ. Even though Mercer County was added to the NYC CSA not too long ago, it has always been culturally tied to the Philly area.
It doesn't matter. "Cultural ties", whatever that means, are irrelevant to metropolitan area classification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly
Mercer County is still part of the Philly media market and still remains a major employment hub for the Delaware Valley.
Not true. If Mercer County were "a major employment hub" for the Philly Metro, then it would be part of the Philly Metro. The proportion of Mercer County residents who work in the Philly metro is around the same as the proportion of Bucks County or Burlington County residents who work in the NYC metro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly
You could even make a strong argument that more people from the Philly area commute to Mercer County for work than they do the newly added counties of Berks(PA) and Kent(DE). Disassociating Trenton from the Philly area would be like disassociating San Jose from the Bay Area.
No, it has nothing to do with San Jose and the Bay Area. San Jose is easily part of the Bay Area CSA; Mercer County is not part of the Philly CSA, and in fact is nowhere close to being part of the CSA, as the employment numbers are hugely in favor of the NYC CSA.
It doesn't matter. "Cultural ties", whatever that means, are irrelevant to metropolitan area classification.
I see what your trying to say but you have to put things in perspective when it comes to the reality of it. You probably have never lived in this area so that's probably why your having a hard time understanding Mercer County in relation to the Philly area.
Quote:
Not true. If Mercer County were "a major employment hub" for the Philly Metro, then it would be part of the Philly Metro. The proportion of Mercer County residents who work in the Philly metro is around the same as the proportion of Bucks County or Burlington County residents who work in the NYC metro
It still doesn't change the fact that Mercer County is a major employment hub for the Philly area. Its just that the New York MSA pulls in more commuters from people who live in Mercer County. The problem with you is that your looking at commuting patterns from only one perspective(Mercer county residents commuting commuting out of their county). You have to look at both perspectives when it comes to commuting patterns. The people who commute out of the county and the people who commute into the county.
Quote:
No, it has nothing to do with San Jose and the Bay Area. San Jose is easily part of the Bay Area CSA; Mercer County is not part of the Philly CSA, and in fact is nowhere close to being part of the CSA, as the employment numbers are hugely in favor of the NYC CSA.
I'm talking more specifically people from different counties commuting to Mercer County for employment. As still strongly stand by what I said about its similarities with San Jose in regards to the Bay Area. Philly and Trenton probably have closer ties than San Francisco and San Jose have. Also please keep in mind that while metropolitan area classifications are reliable, it is not perfect. If that wasn't the case than there wouldn't be any need for alternative classification measurements.
The only CSA that I can think of that makes any sense is the Bay Area, but even then that's very much an exception to the norm and really solely due to San Franciscans working in the Valley.
Not really.
The vast majority of SF residents work in SF. I know the media has been making a big deal in recent years about all the new SF tech workers who work to the south of the city, and there are a lot more of them than there ever were before...but they make up only a small fraction of SF's work force. Relatively few SF residents actually head south (or anywhere outside of city limits) for work. And maybe it should be worth noting that "the valley" also includes large parts of the SF MSA. It's not all in Santa Clara county/the SJ MSA.
Here are some stats from the census to prove my point (2008-2012 American Community Survey):
Workers living in San Francisco: 439,726
employed in SF: 374,988 - 85.3%
employed elsewhere in the SF MSA: 38,461 - 8.7%
employed outside of the SF MSA: 26,277 - 5.9% (most of these have to be in the SJ MSA)
Workers leaving SF account for very little of the commuter interchange between the SF and SJ MSAs. I'd say the majority of commuting between the SF and SJ MSAs is from suburb to suburb.
The vast majority of SF residents work in SF. I know the media has been making a big deal in recent years about all the new SF tech workers who work to the south of the city, and there are a lot more of them than there ever were before...but they make up only a small fraction of SF's work force. Relatively few SF residents actually head south (or anywhere outside of city limits) for work. And maybe it should be worth noting that "the valley" also includes large parts of the SF MSA. It's not all in Santa Clara county/the SJ MSA.
Here are some stats from the census to prove my point (2008-2012 American Community Survey):
Workers living in San Francisco: 439,726
employed in SF: 374,988 - 85.3%
employed elsewhere in the SF MSA: 38,461 - 8.7%
employed outside of the SF MSA: 26,277 - 5.9% (most of these have to be in the SJ MSA)
Workers leaving SF account for very little of the commuter interchange between the SF and SJ MSAs. I'd say the majority of commuting between the SF and SJ MSAs is from suburb to suburb.
Thanks for posting the stats. Also some of those working outside the MSA probably also reverse commute to the Santa Rosa and Fairfield-Vacaville MSA as well, dwindling the numbers more. If you work in San Francisco it might make sense to put up with the high cost of living in the City, but if you work in the suburbs it probably makes more sense to live in another suburb close by as commuting can be h*ll! The media always loves playing up small trends though. "It is always romantic to prophesize the downfall of giants" comes to mind. I laughed the other day when some magazine wrote SF is now a suburb of Silicon Valley. Get real!
The Valley and the The City will always play an important role in tech. However, The City is becoming more and more important while The Valley is basically maintaining status quo. As someone who works for a real estate investment advisor, I have access to some pretty awesome information. What's going on *IN* the city of San Francisco right now is nothing short of miraculous.
There is a reason so many new office towers are going up! Just look at some of the lease deals of the past 24 months - the city is much much much more than holding its own to the Valley. Politically, though, the city has to find a way to appropriately provide housing for both the poor/middle class and all of the tech workers. Not being able to house tech workers will hold the city back from so many vantage points (tech companies are still optimistic they will be able to find the space they need in the city right now, but if their workers can't find housing...then it makes sense to keep all ops in the valley).
And I'm glad someone pointed out that Silicon Valley straddles both the SF MSA and the SJ MSA. Some of the well known valley cities are in San Mateo County and others (the slight majority) are in Santa Clara County.
The Santa Rosa and Fairfield-Vallejo MSAs are very very much part of the "Bay Area". I don't claim to know the commuting patterns of these little MSAs, but Santa Rosa is basically Sonoma County, which is just north of the city and where so much of the food we eat comes from. Vallejo is where the 6 Flags is and borders Contra Costa County. To me Solano County, where Fairfield and Vallejo are, feels like it's still part of the city. The HOV doesn't stop, the radio stations and TV stations don't stop, etc etc. It's a 20 minute drive without traffic from my apartment in the middle of SF.
^101 btwn Santa Rosa and the Golden Gate bridge is horrendous.
80 from Vacaville down to the Bay Bridge can be hell on earth at various choke points for the entire drive. It's a mess.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
