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^^^Really well said. I think everyone is automatically inclined to say based on instinct that "Little Italy" is more authentic than North Beach in SF and "Why are we comparing", however, Little Italy is not representative at all of NYC's massive Italian heritage.
There are actually larger, functioning Italian neighborhoods in NYC/NJ that remain today that are authentic, non-touristy neighborhoods where most businesses and people are obviously Italian.
I instinctively voted NYC, too, but then two things clicked for me. One was a drive through of that area, and I remember asking my friend "That's the whole thing?", and the other was all of these posts. I lived right near North Beach here and have some familiarity, and not that SF as a whole is Italian like NYC is, or that North Beach is some huge authentic outpost, but I'd say today, in 2014, North Beach is probably larger and more authentic than Little Italy. Not to mention it's a neighborhood where lots of people want to live, has year round weather suitable for all of the outdoor cafes, has a nice park, and two beautiful old Italian churches constantly ringing their bells. I'd take it over Little Italy and wish I could take my vote back.
Now, if this were City v City: Italian Heritage/Influence/Overall neighborhoods, then SF would be a ridiculous comparison. Chicago, Boston, or Philadelphia would really be the only large-scale cities comparable to NYC in that regard.
^^^Really well said. I think everyone is automatically inclined to say based on instinct that "Little Italy" is more authentic than North Beach in SF and "Why are we comparing", however, Little Italy is not representative at all of NYC's massive Italian heritage.
There are actually larger, functioning Italian neighborhoods in NYC/NJ that remain today that are authentic, non-touristy neighborhoods where most businesses and people are obviously Italian.
I instinctively voted NYC, too, but then two things clicked for me. One was a drive through of that area, and I remember asking my friend "That's the whole thing?", and the other was all of these posts. I lived right near North Beach here and have some familiarity, and not that SF as a whole is Italian like NYC is, or that North Beach is some huge authentic outpost, but I'd say today, in 2014, North Beach is probably larger and more authentic than Little Italy. Not to mention it's a neighborhood where lots of people want to live, has year round weather suitable for all of the outdoor cafes, has a nice park, and two beautiful old Italian churches constantly ringing their bells. I'd take it over Little Italy and wish I could take my vote back.
Now, if this were City v City: Italian Heritage/Influence/Overall neighborhoods, then SF would be a ridiculous comparison. Chicago, Boston, or Philadelphia would really be the only large-scale cities comparable to NYC in that regard.
Thank you.
Right, but the problem with this poll is, why Little Italy? Just because it's the well-known attraction doesn't mean it best represents NYC's Italian-ness. In the past, sure, but now? No way. It just happens to be the most well-known.
And the answer is what I just said - because it's the attraction. It's where everyone will go, thinking they will find a true Italian area like what existed in 1900, and say, "hmm, this actually isn't very Italian at all." No, it's not anymore. You want Italian, go to Brooklyn. Go to Staten Island, go to the Bronx. Go to New Jersey, Long Island, some parts of upstate. These places are where the Manhattan Italians started moving. Once they earned money and no longer had to work those ridiculous, dangerous factory or construction jobs while living in deplorable, awful tenements, they were able to move to better areas. Little Italy is a reminder of the hardship, extreme poverty (Italians in NYC were the least educated and probably the poorest), and struggle. Once people prospered, they spread out and no question, this area is the most Italian in the country because of that.
I'd be interested in seeing SF's North Beach, though. Seems interesting for sure. I honestly had not heard of it until this thread, but I know far less about Western cities.
I actually wrote a college research paper on the Italian neighborhoods in NYC from 1880-1920 not too long ago (I am young ) so this is why I know so much about this topic. I will share my sources if anyone doubts my words.
You don't get more East Meets West than this. Little City Market (a butcher) with its red awning has been around for decades, now a Chinese market is on an opposite corner with a green awning, so the Italian colors remain, lol.
Molinari is a deli that has been at this location since 1895. In this street view there is not a non-Italian business in site, and there is an 1860 church as well.
Not that Little City Market is on Columbus, it's on Stockton (which is known more for Chinatown now), but North Beach is not a one street pony. Below is Green St.
A bespoke custom suit/hat/fabric clothier, Al's Attire (on Grant), apparently his customers include event designer Stanley Gatti, Rob Schneider, and Carlos Santana:
And who can forget the most famous building in the entire area, Francis Ford Coppola's "Columbus Tower", circa 1907 (aka Sentinel Building). Coppola's American Zoetrope studio (co-founded with George Lucas) is based here, and the movie has starred in many a movie, notably Interview with a Vampire if I recall from memory the beginning and end of that movie. His restaurant, which is a branch from his Napa winery, is at the bottom:
I appreciate your taking time to put your post together. Thank you. I'm fine with your changing your vote.
When I asked you about butcher shops, I was looking at Little City Market, assuming that despite being on the other side of Columbus, it's an Italian shop. I wish more of the buildings in North Beach resembled the Sentinel Building, not in shape, because I understand it's an unusual location, but the facade. The block that has Molinari's and Mona Lisa as well as the block with Gino Carlo are pretty cool. It's interesting that of your six posted street views, I had posted three of the same blocks in my very first post.
If you like awnings, take a drive up 9th st. in Philadelphia in the Italian Market, where the awnings connect for the entire length of the block, for blocks and blocks. Perhaps awnings are rare in SF, I don't know, but it would be more unusual here to see no awning. I purposely didn't include a link because I'm not trying to inject Philadelphia into this thread.
You might take this the wrong way, but while you've changed my mind that the neighborhood isn't 100% devoid of authenticity, North Beach just doesn't feel to me like an Italian neighborhood. And while North Beach may be a better neighborhood to live in, that isn't the issue here. Size isn't important to me either, and I don't think weather is part of the analysis. I won't bore you with details, but I was in North Beach in 2010 and was aware that it's the Italian section. I was disappointed. It lacked the charm I'm used to seeing in other Little Italy's. It seems like a nice neighborhood. It's certainly cleaner than most Italian neighborhoods. It just doesn't feel like one.
Unfortunately, IMO, North Beach, like so many other places in SF, looks sanitized, lacking individual character that says you've entered a distinct neighborhood. You may feel otherwise, but to a newcomer like me, it feels just like the block before it and the block after it. The only thing that remotely feels Italian are the dotted store fronts bearing Italian-sounding names such as Mama's or Mona Lisa's, a few signs on the buildings, which I like, and the light poles bearing the Italian colors.
When I look at North Beach, I ask myself where are the Italian flags, the Tricolores, The green, white, and red streamers? The banners? The lights? The statues and gates across the streets? I want to see an entire building painted green, white, and red, like the one on Hester St. in the pic I posted on the right side of the image.
And if SF is so proud of Joe DiMaggio, where's the huge mural dedicated to him? In Philadelphia, all you have to do is be Italian and get elected mayor, and you get a huge mural in the Italian Market. (On a serious note, does anyone know why Google blurs the faces on murals? Frank Rizzo's face is blurred out on street view, as well as the faces on the mural across the street from Pat's.)
I'm being sincere when I ask: are there ordinances in SF that restrict flags and streamers? Or are the good people of SF too detached to engage in such ostentatious ornaments? Because but for the Italian flags painted on the light poles, you wouldn't know you were in an Italian neighborhood.
Here's an example. Indulge me, please.
You mentioned that the restaurant Fior d'Italia was the oldest Italian restaurant in the nation. So I thought to myself, I bet that block will look old and authentic. It doesn't. This is what it looks like:
The building is nice, but take a spin and look around the block. Please tell me what part of that image screams authentic Italian. And it appears to be only a block or two off of Columbus. Yes, I see the restaurant sign with the Italian flag. Is that what makes this image so unique? I see signs like that everywhere I go. Sadly, the block in this street view looks just like every other block in San Francisco. It's sanitized, clean - very pleasant - yet after a while, it's quite boring to look at. In any other Little Italy, there'd be tacky Italian signs, flags, streamers, lights, plaques, you name it, drawing your attention to that store front that this place was the oldest in the country.
Being curious, I looked up the oldest Philadelphia Italian restaurant, and this is what I found. Please share what you may know about this.
So has Fior d'Italia reopened? If so, do you know how long it was shut down? Before I proclaim that Philadelphia now has the oldest Italian restaurant, I'd like to know the facts, as well as hear the thoughts of others how that particular stat gets worked out. If it's a situation where the transfer of Fior d'Italia to new owners was seamless, I'm fine saying that Fior d'Italia retains its title. In truth, I don't care.
I respect what Fior d'Italia is. I'm happy for them that they've been in business so long. I'm sure that place has some fascinating history, and I'm sure it was sad to close the doors. But the block it's on looks just like every other block in SF. I remain open minded to see some more street views. North Beach is a large area, and I don't claim to have mastered the neighborhood. You got me down to 85%.
Last edited by Mantronix4204; 05-28-2014 at 03:38 PM..
I appreciate your taking time to put your post together. Thank you. I'm fine with your changing your vote.
When I asked you about butcher shops, I was looking at Little City Market, assuming that despite being on the other side of Columbus, it's an Italian shop. I wish more of the buildings in North Beach resembled the Sentinel Building, not in shape, because I understand it's an unusual location, but the facade. The block that has Molinari's and Mona Lisa as well as the block with Gino Carlo are pretty cool. It's interesting that of your six posted street views, I had posted three of the same blocks in my very first post.
If you like awnings, take a drive up 9th st. in Philadelphia in the Italian Market, where the awnings connect for the entire length of the block, for blocks and blocks. Perhaps awnings are rare in SF, I don't know, but it would be more unusual here to see no awning. I purposely didn't include a link because I'm not trying to inject Philadelphia into this thread.
You might take this the wrong way, but while you've changed my mind that the neighborhood isn't 100% devoid of authenticity, North Beach just doesn't feel to me like an Italian neighborhood. And while North Beach may be a better neighborhood to live in, that isn't the issue here. Size isn't important to me either, and I don't think weather is part of the analysis. I won't bore you with details, but I was in North Beach in 2010 and was aware that it's the Italian section. I was disappointed. It lacked the charm I'm used to seeing in other Little Italy's. It seems like a nice neighborhood. It's certainly cleaner than most Italian neighborhoods. It just doesn't feel like one.
Unfortunately, IMO, North Beach, like so many other places in SF, looks sanitized, lacking individual character that says you've entered a distinct neighborhood. You may feel otherwise, but to a newcomer like me, it feels just like the block before it and the block after it. The only thing that remotely feels Italian are the dotted store fronts bearing Italian-sounding names such as Mama's or Mona Lisa's, a few signs on the buildings, which I like, and the light poles bearing the Italian colors.
When I look at North Beach, I ask myself where are the Italian flags, the Tricolores, The green, white, and red streamers? The banners? The lights? The statues and gates across the streets? I want to see an entire building painted green, white, and red, like the one on Hester St. in the pic I posted on the right side of the image.
And if SF is so proud of Joe DiMaggio, where's the huge mural dedicated to him? In Philadelphia, all you have to do is be Italian and get elected mayor, and you get a huge mural in the Italian Market. (On a serious note, does anyone know why Google blurs the faces on murals? Frank Rizzo's face is blurred out on street view, as well as the faces on the mural across the street from Pat's.)
I'm being sincere when I ask: are there ordinances in SF that restrict flags and streamers? Or are the good people of SF too detached to engage in such ostentatious ornaments? Because but for the Italian flags painted on the light poles, you wouldn't know you were in an Italian neighborhood.
Here's an example. Indulge me, please.
You mentioned that the restaurant Fior d'Italia was the oldest Italian restaurant in the nation. So I thought to myself, I bet that block will look old and authentic. It doesn't. This is what it looks like:
The building is nice, but take a spin and look around the block. Please tell me what part of that image screams authentic Italian. And it appears to be only a block or two off of Columbus. Yes, I see the restaurant sign with the Italian flag. Is that what makes this image so unique? I see signs like that everywhere I go. Sadly, the block in this street view looks just like every other block in San Francisco. It's sanitized, clean - very pleasant - yet after a while, it's quite boring to look at. In any other Little Italy, there'd be tacky Italian signs, flags, streamers, lights, plaques, you name it, drawing your attention to that store front that this place was the oldest in the country.
Being curious, I looked up the oldest Philadelphia Italian restaurant, and this is what I found. Please explain what you may know about this.
So has Fior d'Italia reopened? If so, do you know how long it was shut down? Before I proclaim that Philadelphia now has the oldest Italian restaurant, I'd like to know the facts, as well as hear the thoughts of others how that particular stat gets worked out. If it's a situation where the transfer of Fior d'Italia to new owners was seamless, I'm fine saying that Fior d'Italia retains its title. In truth, I don't care.
I respect what Fior d'Italia is. I'm happy for them that they've been in business so long. I'm sure that place has some fascinating history, and I'm sure it was sad to close the doors. But the block it's on looks just like every other block in SF. I remain open minded to see some more street views. North Beach is a large area, and I don't claim to have mastered the neighborhood. You got me down to 85%.
Ralphs now claims to be the oldest - not really sure TBH - your link is funny in that it says KOP - which Ralphs did open a new location in a hotel a few years ago but their original on 9th street still packs them in every night - its only about 3 blocks from my home actually.
That area of South Philly feels more authentic than either of these being discussed but is changing a lot today. Less Italians and more young couples, hipsters, Vietnamese, and Mexicans actually but still has a good deal of the Italian vibe (and yes the language still but fading a bit every year)
FWIW some images of the area today (Bella Vista) and Italian Market etc.
But a sign of changes would be a very traditionally Italian area called Passyunk Sq which today is named as one the most important dinning streets in the country but not for the Italian places - So many new restaurants and only a few Italian legacy places remain
Ralphs now claims to be the oldest - not really sure TBH - your link is funny in that it says KOP - which Ralphs did open a new location in a hotel a few years ago but their original on 9th street still packs them in every night - its only about 3 blocks from my home actually.
That area of South Philly feels more authentic than either of these being discussed but is changing a lot today. Less Italians and more young couples, hipsters, Vietnamese, and Mexicans actually but still has a good deal of the Italian vibe (and yes the language still but fading a bit every year)
FWIW some images of the area today (Bella Vista) and Italian Market etc.
Some of those pics show Rocky running through the Italian Market. It's funny to see how back in 1976 the Italian Market looked sort of Third-World-ish. I still love it down there.
Some of those pics show Rocky running through the Italian Market. It's funny to see how back in 1976 the Italian Market looked sort of Third-World-ish. I still love it down there.
can still look a little third worldish in parts but yes from the 70s and 80s has made significant improvements
I appreciate your taking time to put your post together. Thank you. I'm fine with your changing your vote.
Well you can't actually change it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
I wish more of the buildings in North Beach resembled the Sentinel Building, not in shape, because I understand it's an unusual location, but the facade. The block that has Molinari's and Mona Lisa as well as the block with Gino Carlo are pretty cool. It's interesting that of your six posted street views, I had posted three of the same blocks in my very first post.
Like other Italian neighborhoods across the country, North Beach + Fisherman's Wharf + Jackson Square + Telegraph Hill were established as working class immigrant neighborhoods. Fancy architecture is not to be found in these or other similar neighborhoods across the country. For that, look to the Financial District, Nob Hill, Russian Hill, and Pacific Heights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
If you like awnings, take a drive up 9th st. in Philadelphia in the Italian Market, where the awnings connect for the entire length of the block, for blocks and blocks. Perhaps awnings are rare in SF, I don't know, but it would be more unusual here to see no awning.
Awnings are certainly not rare in SF and line buildings across the entire city. I can't think of another major city in this entire country where outdoor cafe/patio seating is as prominent as it is in SF, where it's year round throughout the city. So yes, awnings for shops and restaurants is standard.
I liked a couple pictures by Kidphilly of a South Philadelphia Italian neighborhood where a mix of solid green and red awnings for storefronts and food stands extended several blocks. You won't find that "look" in SF, though you'll see more "permanent" looking awnings all around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
You might take this the wrong way, but while you've changed my mind that the neighborhood isn't 100% devoid of authenticity, North Beach just doesn't feel to me like an Italian neighborhood. And while North Beach may be a better neighborhood to live in, that isn't the issue here. Size isn't important to me either, and I don't think weather is part of the analysis. I won't bore you with details, but I was in North Beach in 2010 and was aware that it's the Italian section. I was disappointed. It lacked the charm I'm used to seeing in other Little Italy's. It seems like a nice neighborhood. It's certainly cleaner than most Italian neighborhoods. It just doesn't feel like one.
I don't take it personally at all. I have agreed all along that it doesn't feel like an exclusively Italian neighborhood, just like Little Italy doesn't either. I have argued that neither feels totally authentic as they are shells of their former selves, but I'll take North Beach over Little Italy any day, both in authenticity and in feel/charm. Charm for me includes the churches, the park, the tree canopy along Columbus, and the fact that it's a fully functioning neighborhood still, despite not being majority Italian anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
Unfortunately, IMO, North Beach, like so many other places in SF, looks sanitized, lacking individual character that says you've entered a distinct neighborhood. You may feel otherwise, but to a newcomer like me, it feels just like the block before it and the block after it. The only thing that remotely feels Italian are the dotted store fronts bearing Italian-sounding names such as Mama's or Mona Lisa's, a few signs on the buildings, which I like, and the light poles bearing the Italian colors.
Personally I don't think SF feels sanitized at all. I find NYC to be cleaner as a whole. I also think that many neighborhoods here have distinct feels and you are really the only person I've heard say this. There's no question when you enter the Jackson Square area (brick warehouses), North Beach (everything is Italian), or Chinatown. Fisherman's Wharf has a different feel, as does Russian Hill and Nob Hill (similar to each other). Castro feels different. Mission certainly feels different. Union Square feels different. South Beach feels different.
If you think wooden architecture looks redundant, look no further than the brick rowhouses and tenements on the E Coast! Same monotony, to a degree, less colors painted on light poles or arrangement of businesses catering to an ethnicity or socio-economic strata.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
When I look at North Beach, I ask myself where are the Italian flags, the Tricolores, The green, white, and red streamers? The banners? The lights? The statues and gates across the streets? I want to see an entire building painted green, white, and red, like the one on Hester St. in the pic I posted on the right side of the image.
Well you're asking for something that's not even found in all "more authentic" Italian neighborhoods across the country. What you're asking for is actually almost kitschy. SF's North Beach looks like a "normal neighborhood" in SF that happens to have Italian people and businesses, because that's what it is. It isn't a friggin memorial. And for the record, you CAN find flags flying and storefronts painted in Italian colors around the neighborhood. One of my streetviews captured flags flying on top of a building.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
And if SF is so proud of Joe DiMaggio, where's the huge mural dedicated to him? In Philadelphia, all you have to do is be Italian and get elected mayor, and you get a huge mural in the Italian Market. (On a serious note, does anyone know why Google blurs the faces on murals? Frank Rizzo's face is blurred out on street view, as well as the faces on the mural across the street from Pat's.)
Hmmm...well North Beach produced two SF mayors who were of course Italian, but neither mayor has a mural. Lots of famous people in SF don't have murals. Lots of famous Chinese people from Chinatown here in SF don't have murals or statues either. Must just be a Philadelphia thing where every famous person gets a mural in their home neighborhood...
Meanwhile, Joe DiMaggio has a public park named after him which is being renovated right now. I play tennis there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
I'm being sincere when I ask: are there ordinances in SF that restrict flags and streamers? Or are the good people of SF too detached to engage in such ostentatious ornaments? Because but for the Italian flags painted on the light poles, you wouldn't know you were in an Italian neighborhood.
Have you actually left Philadelphia? Or come to SF? These are stupid questions, no offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
You mentioned that the restaurant Fior d'Italia was the oldest Italian restaurant in the nation. So I thought to myself, I bet that block will look old and authentic. It doesn't. This is what it looks like:
The building is nice, but take a spin and look around the block. Please tell me what part of that image screams authentic Italian. And it appears to be only a block or two off of Columbus. Yes, I see the restaurant sign with the Italian flag. Is that what makes this image so unique? I see signs like that everywhere I go. Sadly, the block in this street view looks just like every other block in San Francisco. It's sanitized, clean - very pleasant - yet after a while, it's quite boring to look at. In any other Little Italy, there'd be tacky Italian signs, flags, streamers, lights, plaques, you name it, drawing your attention to that store front that this place was the oldest in the country.
Well, you keep speaking as if ANYTHING Italian in NA looks "authentic" Italian. Sorry to bust your bubble, but nothing here does. LoL. SF's architecture is unique to SF. NYC's and Philadelphia's architecture is unique to those two cities. None of those architectural styles look anything like Italy. I will say that churches in SF look far more European than elsewhere in NA. The two churches in North Beach look much more authentic Italian in architecture than what you'll find in the NE...they actually remind of a mixture of European architectures found in colonial cities such as New Orleans, Saint Augustine, and Quebec City.
Also, 2 blocks off of Columbus and you're mostly residential, which is why it looks "sterile" and too much like stereotypical SF. On Columbus and immediately off you see more kitschy stuff, but not as much as you just list. I prefer less kitschy to more. The building itself is from the 1800s, so I'm sure the preservation authorities here in preservation crazy SF would be beside themselves if the building were altered or adorned with kitschy crap all over it.
Answer your question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
Being curious, I looked up the oldest Philadelphia Italian restaurant, and this is what I found. Please share what you may know about this.
King of Prussia where the two malls are? Ok...doesn't sound comparable to a business that is operating and has operated in a 128+ year old building in a historic central part of town.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
From the comments, it appears that at least two people think the quality has gone down.
Wouldn't be surprised. This happens and doesn't reflect on the neighborhood as a whole? Besides, nobody's food standards in the US are higher than San Franciscans', arguably.
So has Fior d'Italia reopened? If so, do you know how long it was shut down?
I think it shut down and reopened. All I know is it's open now, in the same location as it was in the 1800s. None of this matters, anyway...just another OLD business still operating in the Italian section of SF, which you proclaim is in no way authentic whatsoever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
Before I proclaim that Philadelphia now has the oldest Italian restaurant, I'd like to know the facts, as well as hear the thoughts of others how that particular stat gets worked out. If it's a situation where the transfer of Fior d'Italia to new owners was seamless, I'm fine saying that Fior d'Italia retains its title. In truth, I don't care.
Ok, well I guess you're the authority. LoL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
North Beach is a large area, and I don't claim to have mastered the neighborhood. You got me down to 85%.
Ok, I'll take your word for it.
Thanks Kidphilly for the pics. FTR, nobody is making any arguments that SF as a whole is more Italian than NYC or that cities such as Philadelphia, Boston, and Chicago don't have fantastic Italian history and remaining neighborhoods. I'm personally arguing that North Beach as a former and current Italian oriented neighborhood is more "authentic" than the 2-3 block stretch in lower Manhattan known as Little Italy. I voted for Little Italy, but wish I could take it back.
Thanks for the information. I had not heard about this. As I read the article, I was worried the design would be a disaster, but I like it. Very cool. Thanks.
Like other Italian neighborhoods across the country, North Beach + Fisherman's Wharf + Jackson Square + Telegraph Hill were established as working class immigrant neighborhoods. Fancy architecture is not to be found in these or other similar neighborhoods across the country. For that, look to the Financial District, Nob Hill, Russian Hill, and Pacific Heights.
Awnings are certainly not rare in SF and line buildings across the entire city. I can't think of another major city in this entire country where outdoor cafe/patio seating is as prominent as it is in SF, where it's year round throughout the city. So yes, awnings for shops and restaurants is standard.
I liked a couple pictures by Kidphilly of a South Philadelphia Italian neighborhood where a mix of solid green and red awnings for storefronts and food stands extended several blocks. You won't find that "look" in SF, though you'll see more "permanent" looking awnings all around.
I don't take it personally at all. I have agreed all along that it doesn't feel like an exclusively Italian neighborhood, just like Little Italy doesn't either. I have argued that neither feels totally authentic as they are shells of their former selves, but I'll take North Beach over Little Italy any day, both in authenticity and in feel/charm. Charm for me includes the churches, the park, the tree canopy along Columbus, and the fact that it's a fully functioning neighborhood still, despite not being majority Italian anymore.
Personally I don't think SF feels sanitized at all. I find NYC to be cleaner as a whole. I also think that many neighborhoods here have distinct feels and you are really the only person I've heard say this. There's no question when you enter the Jackson Square area (brick warehouses), North Beach (everything is Italian), or Chinatown. Fisherman's Wharf has a different feel, as does Russian Hill and Nob Hill (similar to each other). Castro feels different. Mission certainly feels different. Union Square feels different. South Beach feels different.
If you think wooden architecture looks redundant, look no further than the brick rowhouses and tenements on the E Coast! Same monotony, to a degree, less colors painted on light poles or arrangement of businesses catering to an ethnicity or socio-economic strata.
Well you're asking for something that's not even found in all "more authentic" Italian neighborhoods across the country. What you're asking for is actually almost kitschy. SF's North Beach looks like a "normal neighborhood" in SF that happens to have Italian people and businesses, because that's what it is. It isn't a friggin memorial. And for the record, you CAN find flags flying and storefronts painted in Italian colors around the neighborhood. One of my streetviews captured flags flying on top of a building.
Hmmm...well North Beach produced two SF mayors who were of course Italian, but neither mayor has a mural. Lots of famous people in SF don't have murals. Lots of famous Chinese people from Chinatown here in SF don't have murals or statues either. Must just be a Philadelphia thing where every famous person gets a mural in their home neighborhood...
Meanwhile, Joe DiMaggio has a public park named after him which is being renovated right now. I play tennis there.
Have you actually left Philadelphia? Or come to SF? These are stupid questions, no offense.
Well, you keep speaking as if ANYTHING Italian in NA looks "authentic" Italian. Sorry to bust your bubble, but nothing here does. LoL. SF's architecture is unique to SF. NYC's and Philadelphia's architecture is unique to those two cities. None of those architectural styles look anything like Italy. I will say that churches in SF look far more European than elsewhere in NA. The two churches in North Beach look much more authentic Italian in architecture than what you'll find in the NE...they actually remind of a mixture of European architectures found in colonial cities such as New Orleans, Saint Augustine, and Quebec City.
Also, 2 blocks off of Columbus and you're mostly residential, which is why it looks "sterile" and too much like stereotypical SF. On Columbus and immediately off you see more kitschy stuff, but not as much as you just list. I prefer less kitschy to more. The building itself is from the 1800s, so I'm sure the preservation authorities here in preservation crazy SF would be beside themselves if the building were altered or adorned with kitschy crap all over it.
Answer your question?
King of Prussia where the two malls are? Ok...doesn't sound comparable to a business that is operating and has operated in a 128+ year old building in a historic central part of town.
Wouldn't be surprised. This happens and doesn't reflect on the neighborhood as a whole? Besides, nobody's food standards in the US are higher than San Franciscans', arguably.
I think it shut down and reopened. All I know is it's open now, in the same location as it was in the 1800s. None of this matters, anyway...just another OLD business still operating in the Italian section of SF, which you proclaim is in no way authentic whatsoever.
Ok, well I guess you're the authority. LoL
Ok, I'll take your word for it.
Thanks Kidphilly for the pics. FTR, nobody is making any arguments that SF as a whole is more Italian than NYC or that cities such as Philadelphia, Boston, and Chicago don't have fantastic Italian history and remaining neighborhoods. I'm personally arguing that North Beach as a former and current Italian oriented neighborhood is more "authentic" than the 2-3 block stretch in lower Manhattan known as Little Italy. I voted for Little Italy, but wish I could take it back.
neither feel all that Authentic to me anymore but see your point
Little Italy in NYC is pretty Tourist Kitchy what does remain - Chinatown basically overtakes it these days and is far more a tourist trap than is North beach based on my experience. North Beach come to think of it reminds me more of some parts of South Philly while Little Italy probably more historically compared to the North End in Boston. And also Italians played a significant role in SF history on many levels. Probably the only real significant population or influence from then in any city on the West Coast
You can see the Italian roots in North beach and now is blending with others - not always a bad thing. Is a nice area regardless and the last two times I was in the area I actually ate Persian at Maykadeh which is very good. In all the have spent in SF which i actually pretty considerable I hardly ever eat Italian, which maybe is because I want other foods and already know that is so easy to come by where I am from if that makes sense.
But can in some ways understand your thought process between these two
Maybe the most authentic Italian enclaves left in the US may be in places like Providence RI or Trenton NJ to be honest
Also Sarcone pictured next to Ralphs may be one the best bread bakeries in America - also IMHO the best Canolli in the country comes from this nabe as well in terminis - worth the trip
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