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^^^I see that we see eye to eye. If I were coming to SF from Philadelphia, the last thing I would want to see or experience is remnant Italian culture or local contributions to Italian-American food. Conversely, when I go to Philadelphia, Italian-American food/culture is a must and the cheese steak is one of my favorite things ever...no Pat's, Jim's all the way (or something similar as I prefer chopped to sliced).
Despite being very touristy, I don't think North Beach is a Top 5 thing in SF for tourists to see or experience. Same goes for Little Italy in NYC. Chinatown in both cities is.
I think put another way, if you are Italian-American from the NE and have seen Italian parts of Boston, Providence, New York (that's not Little Italy), NJ, and Philadelphia, and you've never been to the W Coast or are just unfamiliar with it/SF (and have no idea there is even any Italian history there), your first impressions might be as follows:
Little Italy, NYC - "eh, get me out of this kitschy tourist mess!"
North Beach, SF - "pleasantly surprised, had no idea there were Italians here!"
...
Certain parts of Boston, Philly, Providence, NY, NJ, CT, etc - "this is home", lol
Like other Italian neighborhoods across the country, North Beach + Fisherman's Wharf + Jackson Square + Telegraph Hill were established as working class immigrant neighborhoods. Fancy architecture is not to be found in these or other similar neighborhoods across the country. For that, look to the Financial District, Nob Hill, Russian Hill, and Pacific Heights.
Awnings are certainly not rare in SF and line buildings across the entire city. I can't think of another major city in this entire country where outdoor cafe/patio seating is as prominent as it is in SF, where it's year round throughout the city. So yes, awnings for shops and restaurants is standard.
I liked a couple pictures by Kidphilly of a South Philadelphia Italian neighborhood where a mix of solid green and red awnings for storefronts and food stands extended several blocks. You won't find that "look" in SF, though you'll see more "permanent" looking awnings all around.
I don't take it personally at all. I have agreed all along that it doesn't feel like an exclusively Italian neighborhood, just like Little Italy doesn't either. I have argued that neither feels totally authentic as they are shells of their former selves, but I'll take North Beach over Little Italy any day, both in authenticity and in feel/charm. Charm for me includes the churches, the park, the tree canopy along Columbus, and the fact that it's a fully functioning neighborhood still, despite not being majority Italian anymore.
Personally I don't think SF feels sanitized at all. I find NYC to be cleaner as a whole. I also think that many neighborhoods here have distinct feels and you are really the only person I've heard say this. There's no question when you enter the Jackson Square area (brick warehouses), North Beach (everything is Italian), or Chinatown. Fisherman's Wharf has a different feel, as does Russian Hill and Nob Hill (similar to each other). Castro feels different. Mission certainly feels different. Union Square feels different. South Beach feels different.
If you think wooden architecture looks redundant, look no further than the brick rowhouses and tenements on the E Coast! Same monotony, to a degree, less colors painted on light poles or arrangement of businesses catering to an ethnicity or socio-economic strata.
Well you're asking for something that's not even found in all "more authentic" Italian neighborhoods across the country. What you're asking for is actually almost kitschy. SF's North Beach looks like a "normal neighborhood" in SF that happens to have Italian people and businesses, because that's what it is. It isn't a friggin memorial. And for the record, you CAN find flags flying and storefronts painted in Italian colors around the neighborhood. One of my streetviews captured flags flying on top of a building.
Hmmm...well North Beach produced two SF mayors who were of course Italian, but neither mayor has a mural. Lots of famous people in SF don't have murals. Lots of famous Chinese people from Chinatown here in SF don't have murals or statues either. Must just be a Philadelphia thing where every famous person gets a mural in their home neighborhood...
Meanwhile, Joe DiMaggio has a public park named after him which is being renovated right now. I play tennis there.
Have you actually left Philadelphia? Or come to SF? These are stupid questions, no offense.
Well, you keep speaking as if ANYTHING Italian in NA looks "authentic" Italian. Sorry to bust your bubble, but nothing here does. LoL. SF's architecture is unique to SF. NYC's and Philadelphia's architecture is unique to those two cities. None of those architectural styles look anything like Italy. I will say that churches in SF look far more European than elsewhere in NA. The two churches in North Beach look much more authentic Italian in architecture than what you'll find in the NE...they actually remind of a mixture of European architectures found in colonial cities such as New Orleans, Saint Augustine, and Quebec City.
Also, 2 blocks off of Columbus and you're mostly residential, which is why it looks "sterile" and too much like stereotypical SF. On Columbus and immediately off you see more kitschy stuff, but not as much as you just list. I prefer less kitschy to more. The building itself is from the 1800s, so I'm sure the preservation authorities here in preservation crazy SF would be beside themselves if the building were altered or adorned with kitschy crap all over it.
Answer your question?
King of Prussia where the two malls are? Ok...doesn't sound comparable to a business that is operating and has operated in a 128+ year old building in a historic central part of town.
Wouldn't be surprised. This happens and doesn't reflect on the neighborhood as a whole? Besides, nobody's food standards in the US are higher than San Franciscans', arguably.
I think it shut down and reopened. All I know is it's open now, in the same location as it was in the 1800s. None of this matters, anyway...just another OLD business still operating in the Italian section of SF, which you proclaim is in no way authentic whatsoever.
Ok, well I guess you're the authority. LoL
Ok, I'll take your word for it.
One thing to clarify first: The two comments in the website about lowered quality was about the Philadelphia restaurant, and I posted that link because it said that Fior d'Italia went out of business. I did not know it had gone out of business, and I was asking your thoughts about that.
I do believe that Little Italy looks like an authentic Italian neighborhood. If you don't see the difference between the NYC pic and the SF pics, that's fine. But there's a huge, noticeable difference. It's obvious and quite clear.
What I hear from you, which is like so many threads involving the Bay Area - and this is in no particular order - is that when you don't like the response you receive, you simply move the goal posts. So now the issue isn't which neighborhood is the most authentic Italian, it's which is better to live in, which has the nicer weather, which has trees, and which has a park, as if parks are something unique to Italian neighborhoods. You find the one detail that's in your favor, latch onto it, and run with it, asserting that that detail is the only determinative factor that's relevant to the conversation. So because North Beach has a park and Little Italy doesn't, you run with the park idea and you hang your hat on that. The same is true about churches. And you're wrong about the Northeast lacking in European-style churches. But I know you bring it up only because Little Italy doesn't have any cathedrals. What's even easier is for you to just dismiss both neighborhoods as no longer being authentic. That way, no one wins, but you didn't have to admit that SF is inferior.
Next, when I assert that North Beach lacks the typical items one sees in Italian neighborhoods, such as flags, streamers, banners, and murals, those characteristics suddenly become kitschy and beneath you, completely unnecessary because SF does its own thing, which is the best thing, of course.
I mentioned the mural of Joe DiMaggio because of this, which is right on Columbus:
You say my questions about SF's building restrictions are stupid yet turn around and say that the city probably would restrict such things. Next time, I'll remember to not be so polite.
This thread is about which Italian neighborhood is most authentic. That one pic of Mulberry and Hester blows away anything that you can find in North Beach. But rather than admit it, you head straight to the Bay Area playbook, which is to move the goal posts, change the criteria, and redefine Italian characteristics you find in Little Italy as kitschy in order to avoid explaining their absence from North Beach.
You said it best yourself, "SF's North Beach looks like a 'normal neighborhood' in SF that happens to have Italian people and businesses, because that's what it is." You and I agree on that. Little Italy, however, does not look like a normal neighborhood in Manhattan. It's clearly Italian. It's authentic. You know it as soon as you see it, and it blows away North Beach in authenticity.
I do believe that Little Italy looks like an authentic Italian neighborhood. If you don't see the difference between the NYC pic and the SF pics, that's fine. But there's a huge, noticeable difference. It's obvious and quite clear.
I do see a huge difference in appearance. Aside from citywide architectural differences, which are unrelated to Italian neighborhoods (the architecture of each city being vastly different from what you would find in Italy, anywhere), the biggest difference to me is that the 2 block stretch of Mulberry St that still clings to Italian businesses has banners all over the place, lots of green and red paint everywhere, an iron sign over the road that says "Welcome to Little Italy", and what else, maybe more flags hanging over the street and over buildings.
If you think that's what Mulberry St looked like when Italians actually lived there en masse and before the tourists arrived, you are out of your mind. That's a Disneyfication of a former Italian neighborhood, a way to literally cling to the past as much as possible before the inevitable takeover of the entire area by Chinatown or the kind of gentrification seen in SoHo. Moreover, if that's what you think all Italian neighborhoods look like, and that's what makes them authentic, you are even more deluded than I thought. You live in Philly, surely you see the difference between Mulberry St and South Philadelphia?? LoL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
What I hear from you, which is like so many threads involving the Bay Area - and this is in no particular order - is that when you don't like the response you receive, you simply move the goal posts. So now the issue isn't which neighborhood is the most authentic Italian, it's which is better to live in, which has the nicer weather, which has trees, and which has a park, as if parks are something unique to Italian neighborhoods.
I actually think you missed my point altogether. North Beach is a functioning neighborhood that while still has SOME Italians (most have moved on and scattered, just as they have left Mulberry St), the area is still a desirable place for everyone to live. The same parks, churches, and businesses that more or less exclusively served Italians for generations now serve some Italians and a mixture of everybody else. Mulberry St, aka Little Italy, is a 2 block stretch that can hardly be called a "neighborhood". Businesses there, the ones that are left, are surviving purely on tourism. The Italian businesses in North Beach love the tourism that the area receives, however, North Beach is a burgeoning neighborhood that locals have no problem living in or routinely visiting.
I don't think, and I may be speaking out of line, but I don't think that New Yorkers would be caught dead in "Little Italy". There are better places to get Italian food in the city, and better Italian neighborhoods.
Therefore, I think it comes down to what percent of business for each area is coming from tourists, and what is coming from local residents? Neither neighborhood is mostly serving local Italian residents, but only one neighborhood is even serving residents to any large degree at all.
A church in North Beach that had a 95+% Italian congregation before the 1980s, or whenever the neighborhood was last almost exclusively Italian, may only have a congregation that is 20-30% Italian now, and masses may simultaneously be read in Italian, English, and Cantonese or Mandarin, to serve the mixture of the neighborhood now. Similarly, all of those restaurants, delis, bakeries, stores, etc that once served Italians only are usually STILL THERE serving the mixture of residents and tourists that call the neighborhood home today. The businesses themselves are all still owned and run by Italians, and they still have business, just not exclusively Italian patrons.
I think the same can be said of almost ANY historic/really well known Italian area...most of which are far less Italian now. Mulberry St, though, is 2 blocks, and is 100% tourist driven. I don't call that an authentic Italian neighborhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
Next, when I assert that North Beach lacks the typical items one sees in Italian neighborhoods, such as flags, streamers, banners, and murals, those characteristics suddenly become kitschy and beneath you, completely unnecessary because SF does its own thing, which is the best thing, of course.
No. Name another Italian heritage neighborhood as kitschy and touristy as the 2 block stretch that is Mulberry St. Boston's North End doesn't even approach that level of Disneyfication. All of these neighborhoods fly flags and banners on Columbus Day, but day to day, most of them have some red/green, maybe a few scattered flags, and lots of Italian businesses, but most of these neighborhoods aren't making a HUGE in-your-face show about it, which would only be appealing to tourists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
I mentioned the mural of Joe DiMaggio because of this, which is right on Columbus:
That's very interesting - that's near where I often play tennis and I've never stopped to notice it! I appreciate that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
You say my questions about SF's building restrictions are stupid yet turn around and say that the city probably would restrict such things. Next time, I'll remember to not be so polite.
That's fair enough, but your premise was also that it wasn't Italian looking or authentic unless the building was painted red/white/green and had flags hanging all around, streamers, banners, etc. You and I have very different opinions about what makes something "Italian looking".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
This thread is about which Italian neighborhood is most authentic. That one pic of Mulberry and Hester blows away anything that you can find in North Beach. But rather than admit it, you head straight to the Bay Area playbook, which is to move the goal posts, change the criteria, and redefine Italian characteristics you find in Little Italy as kitschy in order to avoid explaining their absence from North Beach.
Ok, this goes back to a difference in opinion about what makes a NEIGHBORHOOD authentic. That is one of the only corners in that "neighborhood", which is essentially 2.5 blocks since the Chinese businesses are already creeping in from the Canal St side.
Streamers and banners do not make a neighborhood any more authentic. Boystown in Chicago has rainbow colors on its light posts. I think it'd be *cool* if Castro here did the same thing (we are getting rainbow colored crosswalks as we speak, which are drawing divided opinions). However, it doesn't make Castro any less authentically a gayborhood than Boystown just because it doesn't have those ornamental elements that are more or less in-your-face. Also, Castro is actually only a recent gayborhood. Before Castro it was the Polk Gulch and before that it was the Tenderloin, believe it or not. Things change. These Italian neighborhoods are no different and no amount of trinkety stuff can make them any more authentic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204
You said it best yourself, "SF's North Beach looks like a 'normal neighborhood' in SF that happens to have Italian people and businesses, because that's what it is." You and I agree on that. Little Italy, however, does not look like a normal neighborhood in Manhattan. It's clearly Italian. It's authentic. You know it as soon as you see it, and it blows away North Beach in authenticity.
No, Little Italy is a tourist trap. If you walk into North Beach from ANY direction, it won't take you long to figure out you are in an Italian part of town, even if there aren't that many trinkety things making it abundantly clear. The businesses themselves and Italians on the sidewalk with you will make it clear. Little Italy is trying SOOOO hard that it's actually kind of sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Standard111
Little Italy in Manhattan, while kitschy and touristy, is a real Little Italy. Tons of restaurants, bakeries, shops, even the Italian American museum.
I have been to both fairly recently, and have a few questions for people familiar with them: which enclave is seen as more authentic in terms of restaurants, bars, boutiques, and other businesses?
Restaurants? They are both probably equal in authenticity, but which area has more? Mulberry St is actually smaller than North Beach. It's quite small, actually.
Bars? Little Italy cannot compete with North Beach, which as a fully functioning neighborhood and one that is desirable is filled with bars of ALL types and surrounded by other bar districts, as well. It's a nightlife hub, actually.
Boutiques? North Beach has the original Goorin Bros (not Italian, but their first/flagship retail location in the country...the biz is half Pittsburgh/half SF), a bespoke men's clothier/suitmaker that I'm familiar with (maybe there are more), famous bookstores (City Lights, which is an established Italian business founded by Italian Beat poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti), and other things. It's not a "boutique" area, though. Mulberry St, I just don't know. What kind of shopping is there to do there? SoHo is nearby, but is an entirely different neighborhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyjohnyang
Which is more of an epicenter for the area's Italian population?
Talking currently, seeing as NYC as a whole city/metro is SOOOO Italian, Mulberry St is definitely NOT the epicenter. It's actually just one of several historic Italian immigrant neighborhoods from the past. North Beach I think is still the epicenter of SF's much smaller Italian community. Quick research indicates lots of Italians live in Exelsior, but I know that area doesn't serve as any sort of Italian epicenter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyjohnyang
Which locale offers a more pleasurable walking experience and is more frequented by locals? Thank you,
garyjohnyang
EASILY North Beach. See? This WAS part of the OP. Mulberry St is a fight through throngs of tourists. North Beach is much quieter and is much more a fully functioning neighborhood. The fact that it has two active churches with bells and a popular park where locals hang out (surrounded by cafes and restaurants) makes it all the more pleasant, as do the TREES on the sidewalks that I mentioned before.
North Beach still has improvements to make combining auto/bike and pedestrian traffic. It's still a cluster to cross Columbus to get from one side to the other. I take the 41 Bus home, which must go through the neighborhood, and that can be either amusing or a nightmare.
Is it me, or are one or two SF forumers "changing the goalposts" no matter what anyone says?
Manhattan Little Italy has far more Italian restaurants and stuff- goalposts change to "who cares about this stuff; it's for tourists"
Manhattan Little Italy is far more vibrant and busy- goalposts change to "crowded neighborhoods suck, quiet is obviously better"
Manhattan Little Italy has far more obvious, albeit kitchy trappings of Italy- goalposts change to "who cares about Italian feel, what matters is a nice, livable neighborhood"
So basically there's no way to win. 95% of the people have voted for Manhattan, and the remaining one or two forumers will just respond to any point by claiming that the point is not important or a detriment to a Little Italy neighborhood.
Can you prove that Little Italy has far more Italian restaurants? It's 2.5 blocks! How many restaurants can there even be there?
Go back and read the OP. No goalposts are changing, AND I EVEN VOTED LITTLE ITALY on instinct. Far more people have visited Little Italy than North Beach and most people in this country probably make two quick assumptions (neither wrong): NYC has lots of Italians and SF doesn't have many Italians. It's easy to translate this to Little Italy is "more authentic" and more pleasurable to walk through. I fell into that trap myself, but it IS a trap.
Little Italy
1. Amici II 165 Mulberry St.
2. Angelo's of Mulberry St. 146 Mulberry St.
3. Benito I 174 Mulberry St.
4. Benito II 163 Mulberry St.
5. Canta Napoli 191 Hester St.
6. Caffe Biondo 141 Mulberry St.
7. Caffe Napoli e Trattoria
8. Caffe Palermo 148 Mulberry St.
9. Caffe Roma 385 Broome St.
10. Casa Bella Ristorante 127 Mulberry St.
11. Cha Cha's In Bocca
12. Al Lupo Cafe 113 Mulberry St.
13. Da Gennaro 129 Mulberry St.
14. Costa Azzurra 134 Mulberry St.
15. Da Nico 164 Mulberry St.
16. Due Amici 117 Mulberry St.
17. Ferrara Bakery & Cafe 195 Grand St.
18. Fratelli Ristorante 115 Mulberry St.
19. Florio's Grill & Cigar Bar 192 Grand St.
20. Il Fornaio Ristorante 132A Mulberry St.
21. Il Cortile 125 Mulberry St.
22. Il Palazzo 151 Mulberry St.
23. La Bella Ferrara 108 Mulberry St.
24. La Mela Ristorante 167 Mulberry St.
25. Lombardi's 32 Spring St.
26. Luna Restaurant 112 Mulberry St.
27. Lunella Ristorante 173 Mulberry St.
28. Oniel's 174 Grand St.
29. Caffe Sorrento 132 Mulberry St.
30. Pellegrino's 138 Mulberry St.
31. Positano Ristorante 122 Mulberry St.
32. Puglia Ristorante 189 Hester St.
33. Rocky's Italian Restaurant 45 Spring Street
34. Sambuca's Cafe 105 Mulberry St.
35. S.P.Q.R. 133 Mulberry St.
36. Taormina 147 Mulberry St.
37. Umbertos Clam House 178 Mulberry St.
38. The Original Vincent's 119 Mott St.
39 Grotta Azzurra 177 Mulberry St.
40. Paesano of Mulberry St. 136 Mulberry St.
North Beach
1. E' Tutto Qua 270 Columbus Ave
2. Firenze by Night Ristorante 1429 Stockton St
3. Sodini's Green Valley 510 Green St
4. Trattoria Contadina 1800 Mason St
5. Franchino 347 Columbus Ave
6. BaoNecci Restaurant 516 Green St
7. Vicoletto 550 Green St
8. North Beach Restaurant 1512 Stockton St
9. Tommaso's 1042 Kearny St
10. Sotto Mare 552 Green St
11. Caffe Sport 574 Green St
12. Albona Istriano 545 Francisco St
13. Golden Boy Pizza 542 Green St
14. Tonys Pizza Napoletana 1570 Stockton St
15. Caffe Delucchi 500 Columbus
16. Caffe Macaroni 59 Columbus
17. Calzone's Cucina 430 Columbus (you can bring your own wine here, as with several restaurants in the area and a wine bar called Dell'uva Casual Food & Wine...I actually come here every now and then)
18. Allegro Romano 1701 Jones St
19. Volare Trattoria Caffe 561 Columbus
20. Original Joe's 601 Union St
21. Capo's 641 Vallejo St
22. Michelangelo's 579 Columbus Ave
23. Venticello 1257 Taylor St
24. The Stinking Rose 325 Columbus Ave
25. Chiaroscuro 550 Washington St
26. North Beach Pizza 1462 Grant Ave
27. Pizelle di North Beach 314 Columbus
28. Il Casaro Mozzarella Bar 348 Columbus
29. Il Fornaio 1265 Battery St
30. Goodfella's 377 Bay St
31. Colosseo Ristorante 414 Columbus
32. Viva Restaurant 318 Columbus
33. Alimento 507 Columbus
34. Cafe Capriccio 2200 Mason St
35. Cafe Zoetrope 916 Kearny St
36. Cotogna 490 Pacific Ave
37. Tosca Cafe 242 Columbus Ave
38. Mona Lisa Ristorante 353 Columbus Ave
39. Trattoria Pinocchio 401 Columbus Ave
40. Ideale 1315 Grant Ave
41. Pantarei 431 Columbus Ave
42. Original US Restaurant 515 Columbus Ave
43. L'Osteria Del Forno 519 Columbus Ave
44. Il Pollaio 555 Columbus Ave
45. Piazza Pellegrini 659 Columbus Ave
46. Da Flora 701 Columbus Ave
47. Rose Pistola 532 Columbus Ave
48. Tony's Coal Fired Pizza & Slice House 1556 Stockton St
49. Bocce Cafe 478 Green St
50. Fior D'Italia 2237 Mason St
51. Giordano Brothers 303 Columbus Ave
52. Caffe Puccini 411 Columbus Ave
I'll stop there (honestly, in terms of actual full service restaurants there isn't much more).
Italian Bakeries:
Little Italy
1. Caffe Roma Pastry 385 Broome Street
2. Ferrara Bakery and Cafe 195 Grand Street
3. La Bella Ferrara Pastries 108 Mulberry Street
North Beach
1. Victoria Pastry Co 700 Filbert St
2. Liguria Bakery 1700 Stockton St
3. Italian French Baking Co 1501 Grant St
4. Mara's Italian Pasteries 503 Columbus Ave
5. Stella Pastry 446 Columbus Ave
Italian Food Products
Little Italy
1. Di Palo Fine Foods 206 Grand St
2. Italian Food Center 186 Grand St.
3. Piemonte Ravioli Co. 190 Grand St.
4. Alleva Dairy 188 Grand St.
North Beach
1. Little City Market 1400 Stockton St
2. North Beach Market & Deli 436 Broadway St
3. Molinari Delicatessen 373 Columbus Ave
4. Grant & Green Market 1401 Grant Ave
5. Fog Hill Market 1300 Kearny St (local market that caters to individual neighborhoods...)
6. Napoli Market 1756 Stockton St
7. Lombard Heights Market 1877 Stockton St
Random - North Beach will match Little Italy's Mulberry St Cigar Co with Mario's Bohemian Cigar Store Cafe. North Beach will match Little Italy's Il Coccio Italian Ceramics with Biordi Art Imports Italian Ceramics.
Italian Gelato as only product/specialty:
Little Italy
1. M'o Gelato 178 Mulberry St
2. A.B. Biagi 235 Elizabeth St
North Beach
1. Gelateria Naia 520 Columbus Ave
2. Gelato Classico Italian 576 Union St
Italian Specialty Services
Little Italy
1. Italian American Museum 155 Mulberry St
2. Most Precious Blood Church 109 Mulberry St
3. Old St. Patrick's Church, Mott and Prince Streets
North Beach
1. SF Italian Athletic Club 1630 Stockton St
2. Saints Peter and Paul Church 666 Filbert St
3. National Shrine of Saint Francis of Assisi and Church
Personally, I don't know how it's possible to say Little Italy is "more authentic" than North Beach. It may be 100% Italian and tourist driven businesses whereas in North Beach you can also find good French, Persian, Mexican, and American cuisine and the area isn't 100% Italian "themed" (because that's how Mulberry St is, themed). However, there are likely *at least* if not more Italian businesses in North Beach than in Little Italy, and North Beach is still a functioning neighborhood that is desirable to all and still serves as the epicenter of Italian life in SF.
I voted in complete haste and I guaranty that's what most people are doing. It's so easy to say without actually thinking it through that Little Italy, in Manhattan of all places, is the most authentic Italian enclave in America, and frankly while that's the title of the thread, that's not particularly the OP's questions he wants discussed.
I'm not here to say that North Beach is anywhere close to the most authentic Italian enclave in the US, but I am here to interpret the OP's relatively straight forward questions, and my now pages long consistent answer is that North Beach is more authentic than Little Italy and beats it out on almost all of the OP's specific individual questions. How anyone can argue with that is beyond me.
I'm peacing out of this thread, finally.
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