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They vary widely in their audience and vendors. Some have more outdoor and patio space.
Public markets are like having the worst drivers . Basically every city claims it but they’ll basically all the same.
Whether it be West Side Market in Cleveland, Reading Terminal in Philly, Findlay in Cincinnati, Pike Place in Seattle, Ferry Building in SF, Or Lexington in Baltimore
I agree LA has great farmers and seafood markets. But Pike Place crushes places like Boston. Which goes back to the point that I think LA and Seattle both get lower points on urbanity for their more SFH style housing but functionally they are often more urban than the urban Northeast.
What do farmers markets have to do with being urban?
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I would love to see Quincy Market reverted back to an actual market from the mall food court it is today. But I don’t think the quality of produce at Quincy Market or the open air markets near Haymarket and Copley impact the urban-ness of Boston?
The Pike Place Market is some/all of five city blocks, with several hundred businesses. A few hundred are artisans...probably what you thought was a "swap meet." The number of sit-down restaurants isn't huge (maybe 30?), but there are dozens of takeout places. There are also numerous sellers of grocery food...ethnic places, bakeries, butchers, cheese places, and so on. And hundreds of subsidized residents, a clinic, a hotel, and other services. You won't notice most of this stuff unless you go down hallways and up/down stairs.
As for "the overwhelming number of visitors drive there," that's wrong. For starters a small percentage of Downtown workers and hotel guests drive, and Downtown residents obviously tend to walk also. The main driving group I'd suspect is locals taking their out-of-town guests and forgetting that it can take 20 minutes to drive three blocks of Pike Place (the street). A district with 20,000 to 40,000 vistors per day has 1,289 garage spaces (many serving an offsite office complex, an offsite aquarium, etc.) and street parking.
What do farmers markets have to do with being urban?
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I would love to see Quincy Market reverted back to an actual market from the mall food court it is today. But I don’t think the quality of produce at Quincy Market or the open air markets near Haymarket and Copley impact the urban-ness of Boston?
I've been to permanent produce markets in New Orleans, LA, Seattle, Cleveland, NYC, and London. It's a thing in many cities to one degree or another. The ones in LA, NYC, and London (and it sounds like Boston) have turned to mostly prepared food and/upscale shopping. It's a thing. Not an urban characteristic, but I don't think that was implied.
The Pike Place Market is some/all of five city blocks, with several hundred businesses. A few hundred are artisans...probably what you thought was a "swap meet." The number of sit-down restaurants isn't huge (maybe 30?), but there are dozens of takeout places. There are also numerous sellers of grocery food...ethnic places, bakeries, butchers, cheese places, and so on. And hundreds of subsidized residents, a clinic, a hotel, and other services. You won't notice most of this stuff unless you go down hallways and up/down stairs.
As for "the overwhelming number of visitors drive there," that's wrong. For starters a small percentage of Downtown workers and hotel guests drive, and Downtown residents obviously tend to walk also. The main driving group I'd suspect is locals taking their out-of-town guests and forgetting that it can take 20 minutes to drive three blocks of Pike Place (the street). A district with 20,000 to 40,000 vistors per day has 1,289 garage spaces (many serving an offsite office complex, an offsite aquarium, etc.) and street parking.
Well you know more than me. I was only there for a couple three hours, with half that at a sit down restaurant/bar. I didn't see people walking back and forth between downtown and the market besides me and I did see lots of cars, but maybe that's atypical. My wife and I did buy some stuff. There's a store a couple stalls away from where they throw the fish that seeks lavender scents and she may have bought some candles as well. So we did the tourist thing.
What I meant by swap meet is all of the retail, not just artisans. I don't know if you've been to LA swap meets like Slauson or Del Amo, but to my eyes, Pike was reminiscent of those with the indoor retail stalls.
Pine and Pike Streets leading to the Market have hordes of pedestrians at peak times, despite being semi-shady areas. Much of that is people walking from the main retail district and hotel/convention district.
Things are changing too. A connection from the Market to the Central Waterfront is about 1.5 stages in. The Market has built a new building connected by Desimone Bridge. The new building contains some retail on two levels, plus a lot of plaza space for sitting with your takeout and viewing Elliott Bay. Now we're building a boulevard where the viaduct used to be. Next will be a bridge over that, landing on the roof of a new Aquarium pavilion and stepping down to the waterfront. That's called Overlook Walk.
The Central Waterfront is another place with hordes of tourists but not much parking. These projects will help them get around.
the truth is DC has a marginally larger core than Boston or Philly. because there really isn't that much space over 15 floors in either city. If you decapitated Downtown Boston at 15 floors. you'd make up the space by having like the North End, 1/2 of Beacon Hill and Bulfinch Triangle be built to 15 floors not 1/3rd of the city.
you are talking about 5.5 sq miles instead of 4 not 12 sq miles vs 3.
Look, I didn't exclude anything. Every CBD in the nation has all different types of structures mixed in. Key work, mixed in though. Once you completely drop off, that is what I'm talking about. This area below is in Center City and it's part of the urban core.
It's funny that you're pointing to a corner surrounded by taller buildings in D.C. Let me guess, is Midtown NYC not the urban core too because it has a street corner or a street with low-rise buildings. Kind of like this:
For Philly, once you get to neighborhoods like this, how can you include this as the urban core? Almost the whole city looks like this. Baltimore looks like this too. I'm not saying this isn't urban, I'm saying the urban core would be over 100 sq. miles for Philadelphia using that definition. If it gives way to high-rise again after a few streets, then it's fine because all cities do that. Capital Hill does that with Pennsylvania Avenue and H Street. Then Navy Yard and Hill East.
Look, I didn't exclude anything. Every CBD in the nation has all different types of structures mixed in. Key work, mixed in though. Once you completely drop off, that is what I'm talking about. This area below is in Center City and it's part of the urban core.
It's funny that you're pointing to a corner surrounded by taller buildings in D.C. Let me guess, is Midtown NYC not the urban core too because it has a street corner or a street with low-rise buildings. Kind of like this:
For Philly, once you get to neighborhoods like this, how can you include this as the urban core? Almost the whole city look like this. Baltimore looks like this too.
Having 9-15 story building and averaging 9-15 story buildings is not the same thing.
DC has a swath of neighborhoids that have mid/high rises but does not have this massive core that averages that kind of environment. The average around that intersection in the core of central DC was probably 6-7 floors. 1/2 of what you claim.
DC has a somewhat larger CBD footprint but it’s not the 3x scale you claim it is.
Having 9-15 story building and averaging 9-15 story buildings is not the same thing.
DC has a swath of neighborhoids that have mid/high rises but does not have this massive core that averages that kind of environment. The average around that intersection in the core of central DC was probably 6-7 floors. 1/2 of what you claim.
DC has a somewhat larger CBD footprint but it’s not the 3x scale you claim it is.
Are you really saying that you don't think D.C. has building's that are taller on average than Boston and Philadelphia? Didn't we already discuss this using data from another competitor website? D.C. has about 100 more high-rises than Boston and Philadelphia and about 200 more buildings. The biggest realization of that is D.C. is building twice the amount of high-rises as Boston and three times the high-rises as Philly right now so the count will only increase.
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