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I associate Dylan first with the Iron Range, second with NYC, and third with Minneapolis. I'm sure Dylan himself would prefer to only be associated with NYC, but he definitely has too much history here IMO. Positively 4th St is generally considered to be about either 4th St in Greenwich Village NYC or 4th St SE in Dinkytown Mpls. The "watchtower" in All Along the Watchtower is likely a reference to the Witch's Hat Tower in Prospect Park Mpls.
The state line is like 90 minutes from MOA at most. Lakeville to Des Moines is barely more than 3 hours.
Agree with your 1,2,3. HWY 61 is, obviously, a rural MN reference. Dylan claims the Iron Range quite a bit, as well as NYC. But I haven't heard many Twin Cities references. Iron Range gave him "cred," NYC style and sophistication.
While the fastest-possible route from downtown to the Iowa border takes about 2 hours along one main highway, let's get real. It's 3 1/2 or so to Iowa's biggest city, and at least 3 to any town with a notable population. For the bulk of people in Iowa, it would take 4+ hours to get to the MOA. The point stands - outside of nearby Wisconsin, and we're talking about a lightly-populated area far from the state's population base, hardly anyone is "driving over to shop at MOA for the day." It's more a place people go if they happen to be in the Twin Cities already. I don't know a single person in eastern Wisconsin who made that drive just to go to the MOA.
Having lived in one and visited the other numerous times, I think that Seattle appears slightly larger. Mainly in the downtown area. This larger feeling seems tied in to the amount of people on the street. Crowding adds a feeling of density. I will add that after 8pm on both a weekday and a Friday, downtown became surprisingly dead, a lot more than I anticipated.
I haven't spent much time in the Seattle suburbs to compare.
Agree with your 1,2,3. HWY 61 is, obviously, a rural MN reference. Dylan claims the Iron Range quite a bit, as well as NYC. But I haven't heard many Twin Cities references. Iron Range gave him "cred," NYC style and sophistication.
While the fastest-possible route from downtown to the Iowa border takes about 2 hours along one main highway, let's get real. It's 3 1/2 or so to Iowa's biggest city, and at least 3 to any town with a notable population. For the bulk of people in Iowa, it would take 4+ hours to get to the MOA. The point stands - outside of nearby Wisconsin, and we're talking about a lightly-populated area far from the state's population base, hardly anyone is "driving over to shop at MOA for the day." It's more a place people go if they happen to be in the Twin Cities already. I don't know a single person in eastern Wisconsin who made that drive just to go to the MOA.
I drive to and from Des Moines at least 10-12 times a year (unfortunately, as the I-35 corridor it's the least interesting part of both Iowa and Minnesota) and I promise it's 3 hours from Lakeville to Des Moines, or 3.5 from central Minneapolis. The border is 90 minutes, Clear Lake/Mason City is 2 hours, Ames is 3 hours, Des Moines is 3.5 hours.
Apart from that I agree with you. There are obviously people in the Bloomington/Richfield/Nokomis area for whom MOA is their primary mall, and there might be a few stores that attract people from the rest of the metro just because there aren't any other locations (IKEA mostly), but for sure no one from outside the metro is visiting MOA just to be a mall rat.
Having lived in one and visited the other numerous times, I think that Seattle appears slightly larger. Mainly in the downtown area. This larger feeling seems tied in to the amount of people on the street. Crowding adds a feeling of density. I will add that after 8pm on both a weekday and a Friday, downtown became surprisingly dead, a lot more than I anticipated.
I haven't spent much time in the Seattle suburbs to compare.
Yeah all the action moves to the surrounding districts at that point... Cap Hill, Ballard, Queen Anne, Fremont, etc etc etc.
Steel - that's another thing about the MOA. There aren't that many specialty stores, it's mostly stuff you can find at various mall complexes across the country (outside of all the indoor amusement park junk). "Wow, there are multiples of (X store)? Dang, both (X) and (Y)? Usually I have to go across town in two stops for that." I'm unclear why it's much of a draw at all. Then again, I'm allergic to malls in general. Got drunk at a sports bar in the MOA once. Was the oldest "kid" at Legoland. Never shopped there, though.
Having lived in one and visited the other numerous times, I think that Seattle appears slightly larger. Mainly in the downtown area. This larger feeling seems tied in to the amount of people on the street. Crowding adds a feeling of density. I will add that after 8pm on both a weekday and a Friday, downtown became surprisingly dead, a lot more than I anticipated.
I haven't spent much time in the Seattle suburbs to compare.
That's changed a bit over the last couple years as more residential density has been added downtown, but for post 9-10pm vibrancy you need to go to adjacent inner neighborhoods like Capitol Hill (which reaches its peak between midnight and 2am) and Queen Anne, or vibrant outer neighborhoods like Ballard, Fremont, and the U District. Pioneer Square, which is techincally part of Downtown, has blown up in the last few years and also sees a bit more late-night vibrancy.
Here's a (low-quality) video of Capitol Hill at night:
Steel - that's another thing about the MOA. There aren't that many specialty stores, it's mostly stuff you can find at various mall complexes across the country (outside of all the indoor amusement park junk). "Wow, there are multiples of (X store)? Dang, both (X) and (Y)? Usually I have to go across town in two stops for that." I'm unclear why it's much of a draw at all. Then again, I'm allergic to malls in general. Got drunk at a sports bar in the MOA once. Was the oldest "kid" at Legoland. Never shopped there, though.
That's a classic criticism of the Mall. I guess I agree, in that there are fewer specialty stores than one would expect from a Mall with that kind of name recognition. But there are definitely more specialty stores at the MoA than there are at, say, Ridgedale or almost any other classic suburban mall or shopping center.
Thing is, malls are really, really hard to populate with specialty stores. Retail is a notoriously brutal game, even for the big players. I don't know what the Mall's rental structure is like, but I'm guessing rates are high enough to generally phase out any "mom and pop" players.
The appeal of the MoA is that it is one of the first places that large, fashion-forward retailers ever open up. After New York, LA, maybe Miami, San Francisco and Chicago, the MoA is perhaps the most prestigious venue for international retailors to enter the American market, or for national retailors to expand. Some of those have been very successful, and proliferated in mall environments across the US after using the MoA as a "testing ground" of sorts. Others, not so much...
Agree with your 1,2,3. HWY 61 is, obviously, a rural MN reference. Dylan claims the Iron Range quite a bit, as well as NYC. But I haven't heard many Twin Cities references. Iron Range gave him "cred," NYC style and sophistication.
While the fastest-possible route from downtown to the Iowa border takes about 2 hours along one main highway, let's get real. It's 3 1/2 or so to Iowa's biggest city, and at least 3 to any town with a notable population. For the bulk of people in Iowa, it would take 4+ hours to get to the MOA. The point stands - outside of nearby Wisconsin, and we're talking about a lightly-populated area far from the state's population base, hardly anyone is "driving over to shop at MOA for the day." It's more a place people go if they happen to be in the Twin Cities already. I don't know a single person in eastern Wisconsin who made that drive just to go to the MOA.
No major cities, but I consider St. Cloud, Rochester, Duluth, Eau Claire and La Crosse to have notable populations -- all have between about 150,000 and 200,000 people region-wide. But to your point, the closest moderate-sized (Madison or Des Moines are both >500,000 people) are about 3.5-4.0 hours away, and the closest large cities (Omaha, Milwaukee, Kansas City and Chicago) are about 6-7 hours away.
The poll has not had much response for weeks. I will offer again, that these metros are close in population, and both offer major companies, and both consist of two cities that make up the metro. Which feels bigger? I said originally that I thought Twin Cities did, but there are some variables, such as Bellevue, a major highrise suburb that outshines Bloomington. Yet, MSP offers a hub airport, and a big transportation system that outshines Seattle. Please chime in.
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You're right. I just did that drive a couple weeks ago, too....God it feels longer...
