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Birmingham hasn't annex anything for residential purpose since the '80...
Well the 80's were 20-30 years after the population peak. In 1930 the size of Birmingham was about 50 sq miles, by the mid-80's it was about 100, today its about 145.
That is some pretty consistent annexation.
meanwhile, Rochester has been at 35.8 since it annexed Charlotte, NY in the 30's.
Thus I would venture to guess the inner 50 sq miles or so probably have closer to 150,000 people, which the other 100 sq miles having 60,000 or so. Which would be roughly a 60% decrease in the urban core, again similar to Buffalo and other rust belt cities.
That is not entirely true.
Birmingham's city population curve has basically mirrored Rochester's. With them peaking at 340,000 and 332,000, and now at 212,000, and 210,000. Even though Birmingham has done aggressive annexing, while Rochester has not.
As a result, I would venture to guess that Birmingham's inner core is depopulated to a degree much like Toledo or Buffalo.
You're mistaken when it comes to Birmingham's annexation history for one:
Annexation initiatives since 1971 have focused either on small, predominantly African-American communities or on unbuilt land with water supply protection, development and fiscal potential. The annexation of the Cahaba area during the 1980s under the administration of Mayor Richard Arrington, proved to be particularly valuable for the city, as the US-280 corridor became the location for new retail and office development. During the 1990s and 2000s, annexation has been limited to smaller areas.
Secondly you completely omitted the massive White flight that occurred in Birmingham. The effects of that were significant.
Those are the main two factors that account for a dwindling population in the city proper, not significant deindustrialization. The city began making the transition to a more service-oriented economy relatively early on with UAB and the banks leading the way. However, the inability of the city to aggressively annex like other Sunbelt cities, the effects of White flight, and several brownfield sites in the city (old steel mills and such) give the impression that such a transition didn't occur.
You're mistaken when it comes to Birmingham's annexation history for one:
Annexation initiatives since 1971 have focused either on small, predominantly African-American communities or on unbuilt land with water supply protection, development and fiscal potential. The annexation of the Cahaba area during the 1980s under the administration of Mayor Richard Arrington, proved to be particularly valuable for the city, as the US-280 corridor became the location for new retail and office development. During the 1990s and 2000s, annexation has been limited to smaller areas.
Secondly you completely omitted the massive White flight that occurred in Birmingham. The effects of that were significant.
Those are the main two factors that account for a dwindling population in the city proper, not significant deindustrialization. The city began making the transition to a more service-oriented economy relatively early on with UAB and the banks leading the way. However, the inability of the city to aggressively annex like other Sunbelt cities, the effects of White flight, and several brownfield sites in the city (old steel mills and such) give the impression that such a transition didn't occur.
Even if you look at the core counties,
Monroe (Rochester) 667 sq miles had 487,000 people in 1950, today, it has about 750,000 (+263,000).
Jefferson (Birmingham) 1,111 sq miles went from 558,000 in 1950 to 660,000 today. (+102,000).
Either way, Rochester has had more robust growth in the "post industrial" era, which is unusual for a Northeastern city compared to a southern city.
Even if you look at the core counties,
Monroe (Rochester) 667 sq miles had 487,000 people in 1950, today, it has about 750,000 (+263,000).
Jefferson (Birmingham) 1,111 sq miles went from 558,000 in 1950 to 660,000 today. (+102,000).
Either way, Rochester has had more robust growth in the "post industrial" era, which is unusual for a Northeastern city compared to a southern city.
True, but we're talking about a Southern city with an especially ugly recent past that certainly played a role in hindering growth.
I'm also wondering what Birmingham has in comparison to Rochester for outdoor recreation.
Within the City Rochester has the Erie Canal and Genesee River Trails. It also has a beach on Lake Ontario.
You can boat on the Genesee but there is two waterfalls and a dam along the River in Downtown Rochester that splits the river into two navigable parts.
Also about 45 minutes South of Rochester, up the Genesee there is Letchworth State Park, known as the Grand Canyon of the east, which is amazing for hiking and such.
Don't forget the Irondequoit Bay! Rochester is surrounded by water. Not far from the Finger Lakes too.
Don't forget the Irondequoit Bay! Rochester is surrounded by water. Not far from the Finger Lakes too.
There are actually 2 beaches in Rochester on Lake Ontario as well in Durand-Eastman and Ontario Beach Park in the Charlotte neighborhood. City of Rochester | Durand Eastman Beach
Rochester actually has the larger Urban core of the 2. Rochester has 299,000 people within 61 sq miles (Rochester, Brighton, Irondequoit).
Adding in Greece, NY (97,000 people) and Gates (29,000) Rochester has 452,000 people in 147 square miles. (3,440 ppsm) Which is more than double Birmingham's 212,000 in 146 sq miles.
The rest of Monroe County has 298,000 people in 510 square miles. (584 ppsm)
Downtown slight edge Birmingham
Nightlife even
Schools (K-12) Birmingham
Schools (College) Rochester
Suburbs Birmingham
Shopping slight edge Birmingham
Dining Rochester
Crime Rochester
Cost of Living Rochester
Sports even
In response to the original criteria laid out, I have an even score between the two cities. However, a little more depth and investigation shows me Birmingham is the more complete city...
This is certainly not a blowout, by any stretch, and Birmingham and Rochester are suitable peers. Both are very solid cities I would live in under the right circumstances, but there is one HUGE thing that goes against Rochester's favor: it isn't the alpha city of its state; hell, it isn't the Second City of its state. Some of the comparison boils down to just that, and can't be ignored...
Because Birmingham is the largest city in its state and is less geographically isolated, it has a decided advantage that comes with being the "big city" in its state. It has a better transportation infrastructure, is far more busier, has a larger sphere of influence, the larger economy, the faster growing economy and population, a more known national, and dare I say international, presence, etc. All of which are directly linked to the fact that Birmingham is top dog in its state and region. This is too great of an advantage to pretend it doesn't exist for Birmingham...
Culturally, I think these two are extremely equal in experience, in regards to art, sports, museums, dining, recreation, etc. One has specific strengths over the other, but on the whole, both cities are culturally profound and pretty much equal. Also, quality of life is equal--weather is a wash; both are very high-crime cities but Birmingham makes Rochester look like Mr Roger's Neighborhood; Roc has cheaper COL and lower unemployment, but that's offset by Birmingham's higher wages, stronger growth, and more diversified economy...
Both suffer from an unfair lack of exposure. Birmingham will probably never live down its ugly history in the mid-20th century, so it's easy for people to overlook it's rebirth. Also, being literally one of the most violent cities in the nation is an eyesore and a sure QOL issue in media. It takes a "special", for lack of a better word, city to make Rochester, New York appear "safe". Rochester is notorious for violent crime...
In contrast, Rochester is watching up north down the street from Buffalo, a larger city with more name recognition, and in the same state as New York. It's surprising how many southerners have never even heard of Rochester; it doesn't even have the brand or recognizance that Syracuse or Albany have, smaller cities that Rochester easily offers more than....
In Rochester's defense, I found that it's sphere of influence is actually quite wide--larger than Buffalo's--as Roc's sphere covers the entire Finger Lakes and Southern Tier regions more than any other city in the state. Even that said, though, pales to Birmingham's sphere, which with a metro area of ~5280 square miles of land, assuredly exudes influence over even more Alabamans....
The big victory in Birmingham's favor is its economy. Until Rochester starts growing at more than a snail's pace, it is going to stay behind Birmingham and be in danger of falling behind other cities. Birmingham's economy is $9B larger than Rochester's, which is a tremendous gap when you consider that Birmingham only has 64,000 more people than Rochester. Since 2010, Birmingham's economy has grown alost double the rate of Rochester...
The two have similar poverty levels, and Rochester has lower unemployment. Aside from that, Birmingham levels Rochester economically, which is saying something about Rochester, because Birmingham hardly levels anyone...
Birmingham plays the role of the larger city, and certainly feels bigger if you've been to both--not "far" larger, but Rochester feels noticeably smaller....
Again, though, I think in terms of livability, QOL, and culture, this is a dead heat that could go either way, and I would be fine living in either. However, Birmingham functions more as a bigger city, it's economically healthier than Rochester, and I can't pretend those aren't of tantamount favor. Fairly equal cities, buthe Birmingham is rightfully and comfortably above Rochester in the hierarchy...
I'd be interested to see a full comparison between Birmingham and Buffalo...
Rochester has a higher educational attainment and I believe a higher median household income. Companies like Kodak, Xerox and Bausch & Lomb, which still have a presence in Rochester are recognized on an international level.
Also, the fact that Birmingham is essentially THE city in Alabama, while Rochester has 2 top 100 metros within an hour or so to the east and west would make it seem less isolated.
Birmingham has a bigger land area and isn't constrained like Rochester is with Lake Ontario to the north. So, that MAY contribute to Birmingham feeling bigger. Rochester's core is more dense as well. So, you may get many people that feel the opposite when looking at the 2 areas.
At the metro level, Rochester has a lower poverty rate in general and for families.
I think most would take Rochester area schools as well, with multiple school districts being nationally acclaimed.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 06-19-2016 at 10:30 PM..
Rochester has a higher educational attainment and I believe a higher median household income. Companies like Kodak, Xerox and Bausch & Lomb, which still have a presence in Rochester are recognized on an international level.
Also, the fact that Birmingham is essentially THE city in Alabama, while Rochester has 2 top 100 metros within an hour or so to the east and west would make it seem less isolated.
Birmingham has a bigger land area and isn't constrained like Rochester is with Lake Ontario to the north. So, that MAY contribute to Birmingham feeling bigger. Rochester's core is more dense as well. So, you may get many people that feel the opposite when looking at the 2 areas.
At the metro level, Rochester has a lower poverty rate in general and for families.
I think most would take Rochester area schools as well, with multiple school districts being nationally acclaimed.
I consider the suburban area schools of both essentially equal. Birmingham has highly rated suburban districts and some of the highest rated public high schools in the entire country...
Metro to metro, I do acknowledge that Rochester performs better in some metrics. However, my overall impression is that the metros are equal, so I had tone look at the core cities themselves. Make no mistake, these two cities are very much in the same tier, close to each other...
Birmingham is within 200 miles of Atlanta, while Rochester is within 200 miles of Toronto. Rochester is in the same state as New York, but the City is so far away and Rochester is large enough and has its own large impact and influence in New York State. And while Toronto is close, it is in a whole other country; it's influence is limited...
Rochester isn't particularly isolated; it's just "more" isolated than Birmingham. Birmingham is within 200 miles of more sizable metros, and yes, being boxed in by the Lake contributes to the isolation feel, in comparison...
Birmingham's downtown is larger and seemingly has more people around, giving it a more active and energetic feel. I can't say that as a fact, but my experience is Birmingham feels larger. Again, though, not dramatically larger. I was more struck by how small Rochester felt in comparison...
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