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Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonelitist
No it doesn't. Assuming Bajanyankee's numbers are correct (and I don't think they are...or they're telling a different story and there is something we are missing), that's almost nobody that commutes between Northern VA and Baltimore. The same distance between SF city and SJ yields 100x the back and forth commuting as that (and SJ has same sports teams and media and public transit), and yet people are willing to argue for and accept Baltimore as part of DC metro and have a harder time accepting SJ as part of a cohesive Bay Area metro? Uh huh. That's ridiculous.
What are you talking about? First of all those weren't the complete numbers for commuting patterns in each direction for Baltimore-Washington. Second, it's not about commuting to Baltimore proper, there is cross commuting from counties on both sides of our CSA to one another, Baltimore suburb to DC suburb or Baltimore suburb to DC proper. I would assume the lowest amount is from DC suburb to Baltimore proper but there is most definitely commuting from DC suburbs to Baltimore suburban counties. Thirdly there are more jobs in and around immediate DC beltway and people commute from as far as W Va. So certainly a county 20 mins from DC should be considered as a part of its gravitational pull for a decent number of residents, the only difference is that being closer to Baltimore that county is going to gravitate slightly more towards that city. Nonetheless these numbers prove even with the gravitational pull of these two separate cities you still have massive amounts of cross commuting. The numbers do not reflect it at the same level for CT and NJ as a part of NYC metro.
Last edited by the resident09; 09-23-2015 at 09:42 PM..
Manhattan, borough, New York County, New York: 39,546
Washington, District of Columbia: 83,168
Source: American Community Survey (2014 1-Year Estimate)
There aren't that many people commuting from Manhattan to Connecticut (or people commuting out of Manhattan period).
Wow! That's actually pretty incredible. Most of my office < age 35 commutes from Manhattan/Brooklyn to CT. I don't envy them at all, but actually more than a few keep a weekday apartment in CT, where taxes are less to the point where it's cheaper to claim CT residency but keep a second CT apartment than it is to keep one apartment in Manhattan and claim NY residency. That could be something that comes into play, as well, at least for Fairfield County. I know nobody that works in CT and lives on the NJ side. Or frankly LI either. And anyone who desires to live in a house north of the city and works in CT chooses Greenwich/Darien, never Westchester.
I should point out that the commuting patterns of the Bay Area and SoCal are so much more interesting than either DC or NYC. The percentages leaving any of the Bay Area's counties to work in another are much much higher, as are the sheer amounts of people making inter-county commutes. As large as SF's downtown is, a *MUCH* larger number of people leave SF city to work in San Mateo, Alameda, and Santa Clara counties, only to be more than replaced by people coming in from those counties and Marin/Contra Costa.
If the Bay Area (or LA) happened to be 3 states, either would handedly win this argument for cohesiveness.
What are you talking about? First of all those weren't the complete numbers for commuting patterns in each direction for Baltimore-Washington. Second, it's not about commuting to Baltimore proper, there is cross commuting from counties on both sides of our CSA to one another, Baltimore suburb to DC suburb or Baltimore suburb to DC proper. I would assume the lowest amount is from DC suburb to Baltimore proper but there is most definitely commuting from DC suburbs to Baltimore suburban counties. Thirdly there are more jobs in and around immediate DC beltway and people commute from as far as W Va. So certainly a county 20 mins from DC should be considered as a part of its gravitational pull for a decent number of residents, the only difference is that being closer to Baltimore that county is going to gravitate slightly more towards that city. Nonetheless these numbers prove even with the gravitational pull of these two separate cities you still have massive amounts of cross commuting. The numbers do not reflect it at the same level for CT and NJ as a part of NYC metro.
Uhhh, ok, just to be clear, I know. But the numbers presented were Fairfax County, VA (1.119 million people) to Baltimore (2.8 million people) is 50 miles. The distance from San Francisco (852K people) to San Jose (1.95 million people) is 48 miles. Each pair of cities with a major employment center in between (San Mateo for SF and DC for Fairfax County) and dicey interstate options and a single commuter rail option.
People commuting from the larger Fairfax County, VA to Baltimore City and County is 975. I don't know what reverse is - how many commute from Baltimore to Fairfax County?
People commuting from SF to Santa Clara County is 19,087. People commuting from Santa Clara County to SF is 9,570.
With respect to SF, I'm leaving out large employment center counties that are part of SF's MSA that also share large commuting patterns with SJ.
People commuting from San Mateo County to Santa Clara County is 75,047. People commuting from Santa Clara County to San Mateo County is 41,522.
People commuting from Alameda County to Santa Clara County is 71,861. People commuting from Santa Clara County to Alameda County is 38,339.
People commuting from Contra Costa County to Santa Clara County number 13,878. People commuting from Santa Clara County to Contra Costa County is 4,846.
What this amounts to, is among these counties, and likely using incomplete counts (see Contra Costa), there are 274,150 commuters that cross between the two MSAs each day. More likely somewhere between 275K and 285K if one looks at Marin County as well. If you add up the people leaving Santa Clara County and coming into Santa Clara County for commuting purposes, you reach 318K. It's probably safe to assume at least 95% of that is cross with SF MSA.
Is there that kind of cross commuting between DC metro and Baltimore metro? Downtown DC and Downtown Baltimore are actually geographically closer to each than DT SF and DT SJ.
The commuter rail between Baltimore and DC/DC metro averages 34,200 weekday riders. Caltrain between SJ and SF averages 55,500 weekday riders.
My question is, is the commuting bond between Baltimore CBSA and DC CBSA as tight as indicated? What are the commuting patterns?
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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I don't have the numbers in front of me so I'm not the one to ask on that Fairfax to Baltimore question, but you are picking counties on two opposite sides of the CSA spectrum more similar to Fairfield, CT to NJ. How about cherry picking the activity between two Maryland counties that are a part of the separate MSA's? Like Howard County, MD to Montgomery County MD, or Anne Arundel to either Montgomery, DC, or PG Counties. These are more similar to the California examples you made. Again I do not have all the numbers in front of me.
Geography also plays a place here in these different metro areas so it's hard to compare them precisely.
I don't have the numbers in front of me so I'm not the one to ask on that Fairfax to Baltimore question, but you are picking counties on two opposite sides of the CSA spectrum more similar to Fairfield, CT to NJ. How about cherry picking the activity between two Maryland counties that are a part of the separate MSA's? Like Howard County, MD to Montgomery County MD, or Anne Arundel to either Montgomery, DC, or PG Counties. These are more similar to the California examples you made. Again I do not have all the numbers in front of me.
Geography also plays a place here in these different metro areas so it's hard to compare them precisely.
Fairfax to Baltimore is an analogous example as SF to SJ. Similar distance. Fairfax County and Baltimore are larger bookends than either SF or SJ. I would think, as well, with the Beltway and various highway options, as well as a similar commuter rail line, that Fairfax County to Baltimore isn't necessarily "more difficult" of a commute than SF to SJ. San Mateo County with high density and very high employment numbers is between SF and SJ, and highway options are very very limited. I would think traffic is at least as bad and commute times at least as long.
Which is why I provided the numbers for the other SF/Oakland MSA counties (excluding Marin). If you can find similar stats/numbers for DC Metro (DC, Montgomery County, Prince Georges County, etc) to Baltimore, that would be interesting.
I suspect that overall commuting patterns between DC Metro and Baltimore metro are substantially less than SF metro and SJ metro, but just enough to get it over CSA hump (perhaps through commute patterns of a smaller Baltimore MSA County to an outlying DC county like Montgomery County, MD).
About 101,370 federal employees in Maryland commute to Washington, according to 2010 estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau. And around 17,465 of them live in Baltimore and the surrounding counties.
I just have my doubts when people say DC-Baltimore is analogous to SF-SJ. And we're just talking commuting patterns here, but the media/cultural/economic bond between DC and Baltimore just isn't the same as SF-SJ.
I digress, a little off topic. DC/MD/VA is substantially more cohesive to me than NY/NJ/CT, from various perspectives, many of them "feel" related and subjective.
Since when did you start going to Brooklyn and Queens? About a year ago, you said that you had never been to any part of NYC outside of Manhattan. What prompted this new found sense of exploration?
I've been to most of the NYC boroughs at some point or another ever since I as a kid. In recent years, I went to Coney Island a few times with different groups of people, picked up people from JFK airport, helped someone buy a car from Long Island City, went to One World Observatory on September 11, ... stuff like that.
A few people have told me I'm in NYC a lot for someone who lives 200 miles away. LOL.
Wow! That's actually pretty incredible. Most of my office < age 35 commutes from Manhattan/Brooklyn to CT.
It shouldn't be all that surprising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonelitist
I don't envy them at all, but actually more than a few keep a weekday apartment in CT, where taxes are less to the point where it's cheaper to claim CT residency but keep a second CT apartment than it is to keep one apartment in Manhattan and claim NY residency. That could be something that comes into play, as well, at least for Fairfield County. I know nobody that works in CT and lives on the NJ side. Or frankly LI either. And anyone who desires to live in a house north of the city and works in CT chooses Greenwich/Darien, never Westchester.
There's also the reality that not everyone wants to live in Manhattan. And the reality that some people prefer shorter commutes to longer ones.
By the way, it feels kind of cool that Pope Francis is the 3rd pope to visit the church where my high school graduation was held. Also, where he just canonized a saint.
I'm not particularly religious, but that is interesting nonetheless.
By the way, it feels kind of cool that Pope Francis is the 3rd pope to visit the church where my high school graduation was held. Also, where he just canonized a saint.
I'm not particularly religious, but that is interesting nonetheless.
That is a beautiful shrine. My sister is a CUA alum and was there as well.
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