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This thread isn't about general connectivity and urban renewal of all of Cleveland. It's about Cleveland's entertainment/dining districts and their inter-connectivity and walkability.
Do you disagree that the downtown entertainment/dining districts are easily walkable and provided with good mass transit service between the free bus trolleys, the Waterfront Line, and the Healthline bus rapid?
You admitted that University Circle/Uptown (and Little Italy) has good mass transit connections with downtown.
And, as discussed, strong bus lines connect Tremont and Gordon Square to downtown.
The Blue/Green lines provide access to Shaker Square/Larchmere and the Van Aken District (Blue Line).
I guess I don't disagree with anything you said, as long as you agree with the above points.
I’m sorry but the Waterfront line is pretty useless.
I’m sorry but the Waterfront line is pretty useless.
Yeah, but its a line that is more than most cities have right now.
It's basically a people mover for 8-9 (hopefully 10-11) Sundays a weeks for people going to Browns games. But it actually goes through an area that has a ton of residential opportunity (Flats east bank and lakeshore) and conceivably could run out to Lake County in a perfect world ... but that's if Ohio ever gets serious about funding mass transit to boost its urban cores (Cleveland's transit system is almost entirely funded locally).
This thread isn't about general connectivity and urban renewal of all of Cleveland. It's about Cleveland's entertainment/dining districts and their inter-connectivity and walkability.
Do you disagree that the downtown entertainment/dining districts are easily walkable and provided with good mass transit service between the free bus trolleys, the Waterfront Line, and the Healthline bus rapid?
You admitted that University Circle/Uptown (and Little Italy) has good mass transit connections with downtown.
And, as discussed, strong bus lines connect Tremont and Gordon Square to downtown.
The Blue/Green lines provide access to Shaker Square/Larchmere and the Van Aken District (Blue Line).
I guess I don't disagree with anything you said, as long as you agree with the above points.
No, I agree with all that. I was specifically responding to a post about Cleveland not being as connected as Louisville/Cincinnati/Columbus.
I've never been to Louisville so can't speak on it, but yeah, from a downtown directly to urban "node" standpoint, both Columbus and Cincinnati win. but while Cleveland has a bunch more overall "nodes" than those other cities, while they don't blend with each other right now, they aren't as disconnected as it seems. That's what I was trying to point out.
Ohhh, I think this thread's got off of what OP wanted. Seems to be the Clevelnd vs. Louisville thread?
Anyway I'll post what I think the OP was interested in.
For Pittsburgh:
Urban walks all starting from downtown (see online maps for details)
- Downtown itself, plenty of architceture, cultural offerings, history (including French and Indian war and Revolutionary war near Point state park), restaurants/nightlife, and some retail
- North Side (1 mile): walk across Andy Warhol bridge, or take the T rail to north side. Cultural, architectural, sports, gambling and nightlife thoughout the north side
- Strip District and Lawrenceville (up to 3 miles): walk from downtown on Penn Ave to Strip for a lot of ethnic markets, retail, arts and keep walking take Butler St to Lawrenceville for nightlife, restaurants, retail
- Bloomfield and Garfield and East Liberty (up to 4 miles from downtown): from Strip District follow Penn Ave to Bloomfield (pgh's largest historically Italian hood) to East Liberty a mid 20th century retail center, then ghetto, now current tech center)
- Oakland ( 2-3 miles from downtown): turn right from Bloomfiled Bridge onto N Craig St into Oakland Pgh's biggest university area and lots of cultural institutions. Dont miss Cathedral of Learning a gothic skyscraper tallest educational bldg in western hemisphere + interesting nationality rooms
- Shadyside (4-5 miles from downtown): from Oakland. continue east on Centre Ave and turn R on Aiken to Walnut street for retial/ restaurants/ nightlife throughout a pretty large area
- Squirrel Hill (5 miles from downtown): from Shadyside, walk Negley Ave to left on Wilkens then Left then right on Murray for Squirrel Hill restaurants and retail.
- South side flats ( 1- 2 miles from downtown): if a nice day walk across Smithfied St bridge from Downtown, go east on Carson St for a while until you hit south side flats starting at about 10th st and go east , the hood goes about 1.5 miles for retail, nightlife, and architecture (warning its kind of wild on weekend nights). This area will remind you of South St. in Philly if you are familiar with it.
You can get to all of them with public transit but its more interesting walking. Oh, and go to Mt Washington for the views (on 500 ft cliiff for 1 mile parallel directly across from Downtown) and restaurants/bars. take the T from downtown to the Monogahela incline
Ohhh, I think this thread's got off of what OP wanted. Seems to be the Clevelnd vs. Louisville thread?
Anyway I'll post what I think the OP was interested in.
For Pittsburgh:
Urban walks all starting from downtown (see online maps for details)
- Downtown itself, plenty of architceture, cultural offerings, history (including French and Indian war and Revolutionary war near Point state park), restaurants/nightlife, and some retail
- North Side (1 mile): walk across Andy Warhol bridge, or take the T rail to north side. Cultural, architectural, sports, gambling and nightlife thoughout the north side
- Strip District and Lawrenceville (up to 3 miles): walk from downtown on Penn Ave to Strip for a lot of ethnic markets, retail, arts and keep walking take Butler St to Lawrenceville for nightlife, restaurants, retail
- Bloomfield and Garfield and East Liberty (up to 4 miles from downtown): from Strip District follow Penn Ave to Bloomfield (pgh's largest historically Italian hood) to East Liberty a mid 20th century retail center, then ghetto, now current tech center)
- Oakland ( 2-3 miles from downtown): turn right from Bloomfiled Bridge onto N Craig St into Oakland Pgh's biggest university area and lots of cultural institutions. Dont miss Cathedral of Learning a gothic skyscraper tallest educational bldg in western hemisphere + interesting nationality rooms
- Shadyside (4-5 miles from downtown): from Oakland. continue east on Centre Ave and turn R on Aiken to Walnut street for retial/ restaurants/ nightlife throughout a pretty large area
- Squirrel Hill (5 miles from downtown): from Shadyside, walk Negley Ave to left on Wilkens then Left then right on Murray for Squirrel Hill restaurants and retail.
- South side flats ( 1- 2 miles from downtown): if a nice day walk across Smithfied St bridge from Downtown, go east on Carson St for a while until you hit south side flats starting at about 10th st and go east , the hood goes about 1.5 miles for retail, nightlife, and architecture (warning its kind of wild on weekend nights). This area will remind you of South St. in Philly if you are familiar with it.
You can get to all of them with public transit but its more interesting walking. Oh, and go to Mt Washington for the views (on 500 ft cliiff for 1 mile parallel directly across from Downtown) and restaurants/bars. take the T from downtown to the Monogahela incline
I agree, Pittsburgh has a lot going for it in terms of vibrant, dense/compact, old/historical, interesting, trendy, walkable neighborhoods, notably the ones mentioned -- I'd even throw in Dormont, esp along Liberty Ave and at Potomac Ave (directly accessible by T light rail btw)...
But, in saying this, don't these areas "suffer" from the same "problems" some posters unfairly sling at Cleveland? notably that they're isolated "nodes" where people, esp walkers, have to overcome significant barriers like steep hills (and even the struggling Hill District) to get to Oakland, btw. Or crossing the river and going through an empty industrial area to get to South Side, or traveling through empty areas and steep valleys to get to East Liberty or Bloomfield or Squirrel Hill, or Grandview/Mt. Washington (my God, you have to both cross a river and ride an incline, as quirky and interesting though this may be, just to get to this neighborhood), etc... I would say Pittsburgh is more extreme than Cleveland, in this sense, with overall lesser quality mass transit (though PAT is, indeed, very good).
Yeah, but its a line that is more than most cities have right now.
It's basically a people mover for 8-9 (hopefully 10-11) Sundays a weeks for people going to Browns games. But it actually goes through an area that has a ton of residential opportunity (Flats east bank and lakeshore) and conceivably could run out to Lake County in a perfect world ... but that's if Ohio ever gets serious about funding mass transit to boost its urban cores (Cleveland's transit system is almost entirely funded locally).
Agreed. And the potential for growth along the Waterfront Line is there, esp when Phase III of Flats East Bank gets built (its awaiting final financing but its already been approved by the City planning and design commissions). Phase III will build upon the success of the tight, mixed-use FEB development that's been rising since it first opened in 2013.
... and, as it is, the Waterfront Line does attract riders to the numerous warm-weather festivals along the line like Taste of Summer at Flats East Bank (Memorial Day weekend), the Air Show at North Coast (Labor Day weekend), downtown 4th of July Fireworks, and other events besides Browns Games, which is the Line's peak in terms of usefulness... It does seem a tad more office workers, esp from the Ernst & Young office tower at FEB are riding WFL cars during rush hour...
Everyone should keep in mind that the OP never said they all had to be walkable to each other, they just wondered where there were walkable with shops/restaurants/bars in each city. Someone else injected the “you can’t walk to another from another” aspect that derailed this entire thread. Every city has them, Pgh just has a significant amount more.
Everyone should keep in mind that the OP never said they all had to be walkable to each other, they just wondered where there were walkable with shops/restaurants/bars in each city. Someone else injected the “you can’t walk to another from another” aspect that derailed this entire thread. Every city has them, Pgh just has a significant amount more.
That's true. The question wasn't about where you can walk 5 miles and feel good about development.
Everyone should keep in mind that the OP never said they all had to be walkable to each other, they just wondered where there were walkable with shops/restaurants/bars in each city. Someone else injected the “you can’t walk to another from another” aspect that derailed this entire thread. Every city has them, Pgh just has a significant amount more.
You're right, and based on the walkable neighborhoods criteria: Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Cincinnati lead the list... I've never visited Louisville, although I understand it has them, too, although Louisville is not in the league, size wise and culture wise, as most of the others.
Just to vouch for Pittsburgh for a second. Market Square is one of the best urban spaces in the entire country IMO.
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