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It looks like the comments lean towards using radius as a better measure to judge the vibe or population, going-ons of an area. But the poll leans towards MSA..
I surmise that people are not reading the OP and just clicking MSA without understanding the message.
I go back to Winston Salem, and there are many others, if you just look at the W/S MSA you're totally missing the fact that it's pretty much a north Charlotte suburb.. So the point is that living in W/S, you get TONS of benefits from being so close to a very large metro.
Contrast that with a city like Birmingham, AL. Much larger MSA population, but much smaller 50 mile radius population.
What's that say? You get into the boonies a lot faster in Birmingham on average. Said another way, the population decreases rapidly on average as you get further from the city center indicating not as much "stuff" going on overall.
Radius looks at the region as a whole..
That's not true. Two people, other than yourself, mentioned liking the radius measure. Three said MSA, two said UA and 2 had other suggestions. Hardly a consensus in favor of the OP. Also, radius doesn't work because of too many cities, especially in the north, running together into each other. It also would be terrible for measuring coastal cities who aren't able to sprawl in every direction. I don't know anyone who actually believes Winston Salem is larger than Birmingham simply because it's between Durham, Greensboro, and Charlotte. If that was the case then you could say that DC and Baltimore are basically one city. This is also essentially recreating a thread that was already closed for this very reason.
That's not true. Two people, other than yourself, mentioned liking the radius measure. Three said MSA, two said UA and 2 had other suggestions. Hardly a consensus in favor of the OP. Also, radius doesn't work because of too many cities, especially in the north, running together into each other. It also would be terrible for measuring coastal cities who aren't able to sprawl in every direction. I don't know anyone who actually believes Winston Salem is larger than Birmingham simply because it's between Durham, Greensboro, and Charlotte. If that was the case then you could say that DC and Baltimore are basically one city. This is also essentially recreating a thread that was already closed for this very reason.
You're not getting it. Yes cities run together, that's what I'm trying to do. Read my posts.. You cannot separate the effect of nearby metros.
For coastal cities, this is also not really an issue, simply move your center point inland.
You're not getting it. Yes cities run together, that's what I'm trying to do. Read my posts.. You cannot separate the effect of nearby metros.
But it's another metro. There's a real city/region distinction to be made here.
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For coastal cities, this is also not really an issue, simply move your center point inland.
That gets you into other cities, depending on how far inland you go. The radius argument always works against coastal cities in a way it doesn't for inland cities at some level or another.
areas that really aren’t suburban Boston but Suburban Providence or Worcester.
I guess the problem I have with this (and MSAs as a gauge of metro size in general) is that cities can share suburbs that fall between them. Paxton, Leicester, Auburn, and Holden are all Worcester suburbs. Westborough and Southborough feel like parts of both metro Worcester and metro Boston. They’re overlap towns.
I guess the problem I have with this (and MSAs as a gauge of metro size in general) is that cities can share suburbs that fall between them. Paxton, Leicester, Auburn, and Holden are all Worcester suburbs. Westborough and Southborough feel like parts of both metro Worcester and metro Boston. They’re overlap towns.
People further out don’t contribute as much to the size and feel Of the city. Sure someone in Andover might work in Boston but they go out to dinner in Andover, their Gym is in Tewksbury , the parks they walk in are in Andover or North Andover.
If you live in Revere your gym might be in East Boston if you live in Brookline you might walk your dog in the Back Bay Fens if you live in Cambridge your go to dinner spot might be in Chinatown.
People who live closer in spend most of their time in the inner core. 20000 more people in Cambridge would make Boston feel much larger than if 20,000 people moved to Salisbury. However people measure trips in time not distance. That’s why a 2 mile drive and walk are not treated equally in accessibility.
The thing is the ease of motion and mode share is different in different cities. So a 5 mile trip is more difficult in Boston than in Houston. A 5 mile trip time might be 8 in Houston.
This is why MSA which measures % of Trips vs distance makes more sense than radii.
You're not getting it. Yes cities run together, that's what I'm trying to do. Read my posts.. You cannot separate the effect of nearby metros.
For coastal cities, this is also not really an issue, simply move your center point inland.
I know you’re responding to another poster, but with all due respect I don’t think you’re quite getting what others (with good logic) are trying to say. You only want to hear what you want to.
Regardless, you can’t make a blanket statement about which one is better. For the most part it’s gonna be case by case.
New York City’s MSA is the biggest farce I’ve ever seen. My wife has family in both upstate New York and Connecticut that are part of it. Some are nearly 100 miles away separated by huge swaths of low density that makes it feel like you’re no longer part of any of its suburbs. Besides that, the people and culture are so far removed you don’t feel like a part of NYC as well. Just because some people may hop on a 2 hour train ride to the city for work should hardly make it part of a metro in my book (I know why the government does it). Conversely, if you look at Los Angeles it has areas that are completely uninterrupted for half the distance compared to New York’s (and way more similar culturally) that are now in a different MSA (Inland Empire).
Radius is equally as flawed for reasons already mentioned about physical constraints. It’s even flawed when looking at two costal cities right next to each other. You can’t just arbitrarily move your center point when Los Angeles’s downtown is 15 miles off the coast, and San Diego’s is on the water. Not only that, but if you go 15 miles south of downtown Los Angeles you’re in Compton, go 15 miles south of San Diego’s and you’re in Tijuana, Mexico.
People further out don’t contribute as much to the size and feel Of the city. Sure someone in Andover might work in Boston but they go out to dinner in Andover, their Gym is in Tewksbury , the parks they walk in are in Andover or North Andover.
But when traveling, they’ll probably introduce themselves as living “an hour north of Boston”. And note, I’m specifically talking about metro areas now, not city.
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This is why MSA which measures % of Trips vs distance makes more sense than radii.
If MSAs for New England were defined by % trips on a town-by-town basis rather than a county-by-county one, I’d be much more on board with them. I mean honestly: what percent of the residents of Somersworth commute to Boston everyday do you think??
MSA can be a little misleading IMO...the Raleigh-Durham metro got separated into Raleigh-Cary and Durham-Chapel Hill, which many here do not feel like that's an accurate representation of the area. Raleigh and Durham border each other for cryin out loud, and RTP is the major job center that is right in between the 2 cities (though it does lie mostly in Durham). I'm on lunch in RTP right now and I live in Raleigh as does my boss, my colleague lives in Chapel Hill, a few live in Durham, and several live in Cary and Apex. I'm not sure how the census bureau decides on MSAs, but they fudged this one up. East Raleigh to west Carrboro is 40 miles and 40 minutes drive. Driving from south Charlotte to north Charlotte is 35 miles. So a strange setup indeed. Radius in the Triangle's case would be very interesting.
But when traveling, they’ll probably introduce themselves as living “an hour north of Boston”. And note, I’m specifically talking about metro areas now, not city.
If MSAs for New England were defined by % trips on a town-by-town basis rather than a county-by-county one, I’d be much more on board with them. I mean honestly: what percent of the residents of Somersworth commute to Boston everyday do you think??
If you compare NECTAs to MSA’s the population (except Worcester) is pretty similar.
Boston loses Portsmouth/Dover/Rye/Newmarket etc but gains NErn Bristol County it gains a few towns from Worcester County but loses a few in Southern Plymouth to New Bedford it gains a couple towns in Merrimack County NH but loses some in NW Rockingham.
Hartford gains a few in Tolland County and loses Enfiield to Springfield but basically it’s a wash.
New Bedford and Leominster/Fitchburg poof onto existences that are masked by county lines which make Providence and Worcester smaller but Providence steals like Webster and such making only marginally smaller.
But effectively Boston was 4.6 instead of 4.55 in 2010. Hartford/Springfield Change by similarly small amounts. The lines are altered a bit but the populations stay pretty steady.
MSA can be a little misleading IMO...the Raleigh-Durham metro got separated into Raleigh-Cary and Durham-Chapel Hill, which many here do not feel like that's an accurate representation of the area. Raleigh and Durham border each other for cryin out loud, and RTP is the major job center that is right in between the 2 cities (though it does lie mostly in Durham). I'm on lunch in RTP right now and I live in Raleigh as does my boss, my colleague lives in Chapel Hill, a few live in Durham, and several live in Cary and Apex. I'm not sure how the census bureau decides on MSAs, but they fudged this one up. East Raleigh to west Carrboro is 40 miles and 40 minutes drive. Driving from south Charlotte to north Charlotte is 35 miles. So a strange setup indeed. Radius in the Triangle's case would be very interesting.
Sure they border each other, but remember how much area the cities of Raleigh and Durham cover, let alone their constituent counties (as opposed to cities/counties in other parts of the country or East Coast). Durham is 108 sq. miles and Raleigh is 144 sq. miles. Wake County alone is nearly 900 sq. miles!! It's essentially, the geographic size of two or three counties elsewhere, which has an impact on where people choose to work. And it's a very car-oriented metro. So it's no wonder the two cities form the cores of their own distinct MSAs. The greater region can be measured by the CSA they form together.
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