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I know you’re responding to another poster, but with all due respect I don’t think you’re quite getting what others (with good logic) are trying to say. You only want to hear what you want to.
Regardless, you can’t make a blanket statement about which one is better. For the most part it’s gonna be case by case.
New York City’s MSA is the biggest farce I’ve ever seen. My wife has family in both upstate New York and Connecticut that are part of it. Some are nearly 100 miles away separated by huge swaths of low density that makes it feel like you’re no longer part of any of its suburbs. Besides that, the people and culture are so far removed you don’t feel like a part of NYC as well. Just because some people may hop on a 2 hour train ride to the city for work should hardly make it part of a metro in my book (I know why the government does it). Conversely, if you look at Los Angeles it has areas that are completely uninterrupted for half the distance compared to New York’s (and way more similar culturally) that are now in a different MSA (Inland Empire).
Radius is equally as flawed for reasons already mentioned about physical constraints. It’s even flawed when looking at two costal cities right next to each other. You can’t just arbitrarily move your center point when Los Angeles’s downtown is 15 miles off the coast, and San Diego’s is on the water. Not only that, but if you go 15 miles south of downtown Los Angeles you’re in Compton, go 15 miles south of San Diego’s and you’re in Tijuana, Mexico.
Ok? It sounds like you kinda agree. Radius is not as flawed as you make it out to be.. It is diminished by physical constraints I know, but I WANT TO TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION TOO. Physical constraints and all.
Also, I DO WANT TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION OTHER CLOSE-BY METROS THAT ARE INCLUDED IN OTHER MSA'S. Why? Because my little area still benefits from it being only a few miles away.
Radius works pretty much all the time except when population density is vastly different or socioeconomics are vastly different.. How many people live within a given area? That is a decent judge of what's there, how vibrant it might be, how many people choose to stay there, what amenities it might offer etc.
I don't give two craps what someone said an MSA ought to be.
If you judge Winston Salem based on their MSA, you're looking at a small city and totally ignoring the influence of Greensboro, Charlotte etc. That's ridiculous.
If you compare NECTAs to MSA’s the population (except Worcester) is pretty similar.
Yes, I do greatly prefer NECTA to MSA. However, I still think that definition imagines all of the cities and towns in bubbles, isolated from one another. You could potentially stand at the intersection of Millville, Mendon, and Uxbridge having one foot in Worcester’s “territory”, one in Boston’s, and one in Providence’s. You probably wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the three.
And of course all this is overshadowed by the fact that (at least for the moment) Boston is booming while all of eastern New England’s other large cities are stagnant at best.
Sure they border each other, but remember how much area the cities of Raleigh and Durham cover, let alone their constituent counties (as opposed to cities/counties in other parts of the country or East Coast). Durham is 108 sq. miles and Raleigh is 144 sq. miles. Wake County alone is nearly 900 sq. miles!! It's essentially, the geographic size of two or three counties elsewhere, which has an impact on where people choose to work. And it's a very car-oriented metro. So it's no wonder the two cities form the cores of their own distinct MSAs. The greater region can be measured by the CSA they form together.
Neither Raleigh nor Durham are that large area-wise though. I mean they aren’t compact, but Raleigh is the 61st largest city by area in the country, Durham squeaks into the top 100. Their closest analogue would be Bakersfield and Corpus Christi area-wise. We aren’t talking Jacksonville or one of those Texas cities. They are bordering cities and Wake-Durham have stronger ties than Durham does to Chatham which actually sits in Durham’s MSA. Actually Wake has stronger ties to Chatham than Durham does. But there is an algorithm somewhere that can’t handle multi-nodal regions so we get what we get.
Aren't MSAs typically measured by counties? My issue is they often include far flung, sometimes rural areas that aren't really part of the city at all.
The same is true if you try to go by the radius of a much smaller city, but I guess that would be my preference since it would only include areas that are a fixed distance from the core.
Aren't MSAs typically measured by counties? My issue is they often include far flung, sometimes rural areas that aren't really part of the city at all.
The same is true if you try to go by the radius of a much smaller city, but I guess that would be my preference since it would only include areas that are a fixed distance from the core.
Exactly, and this is especially true right where I live, in Orlando, where Seminole and Orange counties (the two most dense and heavily populated) are practically entirely wilderness in their eastern halves. Data shows the MSA being some 4,000 sqft, but really, about 2,000 sqft of that is habitable.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfmx1
I feel like I need to say my OP in a different way. So maybe this will clear up what I'm asking:
If you were going to move somewhere, had you rather use MSA or a radius tool to figure out what cool and awesome things are accessible to you?
Assuming population count is the best indicator of what amenities/opportunities might be available.
I understand your OP loud and clear, we just have some posters acting remedial here as if they can't relate to it.
It's pretty simple. If we use the 25 or 50 mi radius tool, does that number accurately reflect your city/metro, or regions size? The answer is YES, of course it does, the only caveat is that all cities and metros aren't made equal, and some equate to having more than one urban core or central city vs others, but the population is still there.
MSA is an over reaching county based population metric based on commuting patterns, just like CSA. Count the people in a radius and draw the same size circle around every city and there you have it.
I understand your OP loud and clear, we just have some posters acting remedial here as if they can't relate to it.
It's pretty simple. If we use the 25 or 50 mi radius tool, does that number accurately reflect your city/metro, or regions size? The answer is YES, of course it does, the only caveat is that all cities and metros aren't made equal, and some equate to having more than one urban core or central city vs others, but the population is still there.
MSA is an over reaching county based population metric based on commuting patterns, just like CSA. Count the people in a radius and draw the same size circle around every city and there you have it.
The answer is no. Batavia,NY has a higher population with a 50 mi raduis than Rochester NY but almost none of that population is actually affiliated with Batavia. The distribution of people within an area does matter. Springfield, MA is not larger than Columbus. Why? Sure Northern New Haven County is within 50 miles of Springfield but totally unaffiliated.
MSA makes sense because connection to the center city matters more than pure distance.
New Britain CT is 35 miles from Springfield but is not Suburban Springfield like Newbury, MA is suburban Boston.
On the other hand cities like NYC have legitimate pull over areas 60 miles away.
The answer is no. Batavia,NY has a higher population with a 50 mi raduis than Rochester NY but almost none of that population is actually affiliated with Batavia. The distribution of people within an area does matter. Springfield, MA is not larger than Columbus. Why? Sure Northern New Haven County is within 50 miles of Springfield but totally unaffiliated.
MSA makes sense because connection to the center city matters more than pure distance.
New Britain CT is 35 miles from Springfield but is not Suburban Springfield like Newbury, MA is suburban Boston.
On the other hand cities like NYC have legitimate pull over areas 60 miles away.
This doesn't matter and doesn't address the point. The point being tested here is what's a better measure of "what's around here that is accessible to me?" If an MSA stretches 100 miles, that doesn't really tell me much about how life will be in the single point of residence.
Radius simply measures everything that is close by, or within a fixed circle.
I go back to the Birmingham vs Winston Salem comparison in another thread.
Birmingham's MSA is 2x the size of W/S in both population and land area. How is that a comparable measure when I'm trying to figure out how life would be like there.
Hardly apples to apples.
Therefore, one could conclude that W/S, with double the population within a 50 mile radius has more commerce, economic activity, opportunity, amenities, jobs, etc etc.
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