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Yeah I know Buffalo and Pittsburgh “aren’t Midwest” but whatever they fit in this class of cities better than the old Northeastern cities.
So my list is
Chicago- Obviously, just way of everyone else’s CTA bus and CTA rail alone would be the best systems in the Midwest
Minneapolis St Paul: Not only do they have light rail but they have a pretty rodbust system of busses including high frequency routes that do not trrminate Downtown which are a big asset IMO.
Pittsburgh: Perhaps one of the best bus systems (like Seattle) in the country with 3 busways and a Small LRT network it’s a solid 3
Then I think it gets messy
Cleveland/Buffalo: Cleveland would be up with Pittsburgh if it hadn’t let its Bus system degrade so much over the last decade, bit both have some exclusive ROW rail and Buffalo has substantial Bus Ridership while Cleveland even considering its bigger size has better rail.
Milwaukee: Slightly better ridership than Cleveland and a bit under Buffalo per capita but that’s more due to the lack of interstates making driving less attractive and an overall more cohesive urban core than Milwaukee County Transit actively doing anything of their own doing
St Louis: similar to Cleveland but a longer trunk line means less rail service to the core.
Then after this the only Transit system worth mentioning is Columbus which is at least really trying to become a legit option for commuting and has seen an increase in ridership the last few years and is approaching 20 mil riders/year which is the APTA cutoff for “large Transit systems”
I would rate Cleveland and Pittsburgh tied for 2nd behind Chicago.
Pittsburgh has light rail rapid transit (LRT) through downtown and to the south suburbs, which is pretty good in the limited area it covers. It does have a nice downtown subway, which is free through the North Side stadium/casino district. Pittsburgh's BRT routes, esp the Martin Luther King/East busway, are the best (imho) and fastest in the nation. I would rather the MLK have been LRT, but the busway is working and stimulating TOD growth, esp in East Liberty... Pittsburgh buses are plentiful and frequent... And finally, and most fun, are funicular inclines up Mt. Washington -- one of which interfaces with LRT trains at the Station Square retail district... the downside of the T LRT lines is that trains often ride painfully slow for some reason, even in the subways.
Cleveland's rail rapid transit system, while not huge, is more comprehensive, and serves its city area and some close in suburbs better than any Midwestern system (at the moment) outside of Chicago. It's the only legacy system outside of Chicago, as well, whose core system and infrastructure built by private interests 100 years ago -- and infrastructure wise, Cleveland's RTA Rapid has age issues, for sure. But it's 4 lines (5 branches) are easy to use and get you to many popular areas of town... Then there's the Health Line BRT out Euclid Ave -- Cleveland's main drag core -- the Health Line should have been a rail Rapid extension, but that's a whole 'nother story...
Cleveland's free downtown Trolleys supplement the bus/rail network and cover all areas of downtown on fixed routes running every 10 minutes. Yes, the bus system kinda sucks right now in the frequency is much lower than it should be due to budget cuts. Except on the 24/7 Health Line, which runs every 10-15 minutes throughout the day (and every 30 minutes through the night/early morning), frequency on main routes is about every 20 to 30 minutes, which is not good, and some connecting (to the Rapid) crosstown feeder routes run as infrequently as every hour during non-rush periods. ... Not good. Despite this, overall, Cleveland is well ahead of most major American cities transit-wise, esp in the Midwest. If you learn the system, you really don't need a car for in-city/close in suburb trips; especially for short stays.
Compared to Pittsburgh, Cleveland is flat (mostly) and with much wider streets, which makes transit use considerably easier.
... I would rank St. Louis as close 3rd. Metro Link trains are actually pretty good, serve the core area well, serve a couple popular areas, like Central West End, downtown Clayton, the Galleria shopping Mall and University City/Delmar Loop. For this reason, a good number of commuters use the system... And its 3 lines penetrate deep into the suburbs, esp the east branch into southern Illinois. Metro Link trains run very fast; are clean and efficient.
But most of St. Louis isn't served by rail and I'm not familiar enough with the bus system to evaluate it.
I can't rate Minneapolis system other than to say its good that a 4th Midwestern city has invested in true rapid transit (OK 5th, if you include Pittsburgh, which most people don't), and the system is growing. The area also has a new commuter rail line, too. But the Twin Cities area is sprawling; considerably more so than either Pittsburgh or Cleveland.
... I would rank St. Louis as close 3rd. Metro Link trains are actually pretty good, serve the core area well, serve a couple popular areas, like Central West End, downtown Clayton, the Galleria shopping Mall and University City/Delmar Loop. For this reason, a good number of commuters use the system... And its 3 lines penetrate deep into the suburbs, esp the east branch into southern Illinois. Metro Link trains run very fast; are clean and efficient.
But most of St. Louis isn't served by rail and I'm not familiar enough with the bus system to evaluate it.
I can't rate Minneapolis system other than to say its good that a 4th Midwestern city has invested in true rapid transit (OK 5th, if you include Pittsburgh, which most people don't), and the system is growing. The area also has a new commuter rail line, too. But the Twin Cities area is sprawling; considerably more so than either Pittsburgh or Cleveland.
The Twin cities have a significantly larger and denser urban core than any city outside Chicago.
Now this partially contributes to the highest ridership/capita outside Chicago but it’s system is also pretty good
Now by transit share Cleveland should be below Buffalo and Milwaukee but it’s impressive rail infrastructure boosted it to Buffalo’s level. I think placing it above the Twin Cities and Placing it with Pittsburgh which have 60% higher rideshares is giving rail too much weight vs a robust bus system.
The Twin cities have a significantly larger and denser urban core than any city outside Chicago.
Now this partially contributes to the highest ridership/capita outside Chicago but it’s system is also pretty good
Now by transit share Cleveland should be below Buffalo and Milwaukee but it’s impressive rail infrastructure boosted it to Buffalo’s level. I think placing it above the Twin Cities and Placing it with Pittsburgh which have 60% higher rideshares is giving rail too much weight vs a robust bus system.
No question, Cleveland's ridership has cratered big time. I attribute much of this to the huge loss of downtown jobs -- many lost to the suburbs, some, out of state completely. Downtown Cleveland has become an adult playground with lots of office building --> to apartment retrofits, lots of restaurants and clubs. But these people don't need or use transit like the traditional Shaker Heights or West Side commuters packing buses and trains for downtown jobs when Cleveland was the 3rd largest Fortune 500 corporate HQ city into the early 1980s. Problem then was the reverse: downtown bustled by day with jobs and retail (including 3 major department stores -- now all gone), but was dead after 6:30p. While a lot of progress has been made in downtown and various areas in terms of restaurants, entertainment and tourism, retail is sorely lacking ... almost invisible with almost nothing open past 6p on weekdays. Cleveland went shopping mall crazy in the 60s and 70s, and that still hasn't changed significantly. Suburban shopping and office development has been really bad news for RTA.
Sherwin-Williams is rumored to build its corporate HQ and R&D center in the center of town. Also TOD is popping up at a couple of Rapid stations. Hopefully this will turn the tide and get butts back into transit seats. But you're right, Cleveland sucks ridership-wise these days, which is stoking some fear about the future of the system, esp given the old Rapid cars that are dwindling in number and desperately need replacement..
No question, Cleveland's ridership has cratered big time. I attribute much of this to the huge loss of downtown jobs -- many lost to the suburbs, some, out of state completely. Downtown Cleveland has become an adult playground with lots of office building --> to apartment retrofits, lots of restaurants and clubs. But these people don't need or use transit like the traditional Shaker Heights or West Side commuters packing buses and trains for downtown jobs when Cleveland was the 3rd largest Fortune 500 corporate HQ city into the early 1980s. Problem then was the reverse: downtown bustled by day with jobs and retail (including 3 major department stores -- now all gone), but was dead after 6:30p. While a lot of progress has been made in downtown and various areas in terms of restaurants, entertainment and tourism, retail is sorely lacking ... almost invisible with almost nothing open past 6p on weekdays. Cleveland went shopping mall crazy in the 60s and 70s, and that still hasn't changed significantly. Suburban shopping and office development has been really bad news for RTA.
Sherwin-Williams is rumored to build its corporate HQ and R&D center in the center of town. Also TOD is popping up at a couple of Rapid stations. Hopefully this will turn the tide and get butts back into transit seats. But you're right, Cleveland sucks ridership-wise these days, which is stoking some fear about the future of the system, esp given the old Rapid cars that are dwindling in number and desperately need replacement..
IMO, people don't ride the Rapid for two reasons. One, some many people now are slaves to the automobile and have become lazy that way. Some don't feel like braving the cold, snowy elements in the winter waiting 20 minutes for a Rapid. Or, there are some out there that have the perception that the Rapid (well, PT in general) is for poor people. The reason why it would clear out by 6:30 pm back in the day because of the crime (or the perception of crime) so they hightailed out of Downtown so they wouldn't get caught up. Even players who played for the teams at the time said you didn't hang around Downtown after the games back in the day. As far as retail, online businesses and places like Walmart and Target have killed local retail businesses.
Then after this the only Transit system worth mentioning is Columbus which is at least really trying to become a legit option for commuting and has seen an increase in ridership the last few years and is approaching 20 mil riders/year which is the APTA cutoff for “large Transit systems”
Hmm, I think you're remiss (and everyone else so far) for leaving off Detroit. I was there two months ago and fairly impressed with how things have been improving. Qline and Metromover combine for a little over 3 Million rides/year, and by my quick rough math the DDOT and SMART (bus operators for the city and suburbs respectively) get around 45M annually. If you're gonna mention Columbus then Detroit should obviously be up there too...
Just to mention a few others, KC and Cincy both have streetcars and Indy recently opened its trunk line (red line) for its new BRT system. No idea how it's doing now, but opening weekend was very promising.
Also, I agree with MSP being second to Chicago, with the same caveat that I always give that it's extremely hard to make fair comparisons based on personal experience since so much of our transit impressions are clouded by our particular needs/schedule/location. And that's assuming that we lived and utilized transit in multiple cities within a recent time frame...which in itself is rare. For me, Cleveland and Pittsburgh would be the next pair.
IMO, people don't ride the Rapid for two reasons. One, some many people now are slaves to the automobile and have become lazy that way. Some don't feel like braving the cold, snowy elements in the winter waiting 20 minutes for a Rapid. Or, there are some out there that have the perception that the Rapid (well, PT in general) is for poor people. The reason why it would clear out by 6:30 pm back in the day because of the crime (or the perception of crime) so they hightailed out of Downtown so they wouldn't get caught up. Even players who played for the teams at the time said you didn't hang around Downtown after the games back in the day. As far as retail, online businesses and places like Walmart and Target have killed local retail businesses.
I refuse to believe there's a critical mass of people in Cleveland that are that car-dependent and that stereotypical or bigoted or big city adverse (afraid of crime), as to put such a serious dent in transit. People in Cleveland are no different, significantly, than any place else in America, once you account for education and income differences. Fact is people were packing the buses and trains in the early 80s; so much so there were equipment shortages. They are not doing so, now. Why? I don't believe attitudes in the same city within, generally, the same families or groups of people over a generation and a half have radically changed that much.
If your theory is correct: why do people still pack the trains for special events, like they did, as usual, last Sunday on that bright sunny day to watch the Browns lose to the Seahawks? -- and this was a few weeks after the well-publicized debacle of the packed, 2-car Waterfront Line train getting stuck for 2 hours in darkness following the Rams game.
I'm sticking to my premise that people will ride RTA, esp the Rapid, to get to where jobs and activity is, and clearly downtown is lacking the former -- not in the significant numbers as years past -- and is lacking in even a minimal level of decent retail. But I think the jobs downtown vs. their relocation to sprawling, transit inaccessible suburbs is RTA's biggest problem.
I really don't think Cleveland RTA is that bad, or even "bad" at all. More job concentration downtown would help raise frequencies, which I agree, wish were better. RTA seems like they want to start moving in that direction anyway though, which I think would get more people on the bus and train.
I commute to University Circle from University Heights. The bus has always been on time, I've never been late. People pour out of the University Circle red line rapid station between 7 and 9 am. The Health Line has frequency of 5-10 minutes all day long. I get from UC downtown and back with relative ease and never have to wait that long.
I anticipate things getting better from this point. Hopefully the Sherwin WIlliams example will have a ripple effect of encouraging others to commit long term, or even move into town. I think the suburban office park days are ending anyway. I know some people here who work in Beachwood and Mayfield and places like that. While they may enjoy their jobs, hardly any of them seem enthused about the location. I think as the boomers become fewer and fewer, demand from employees to be more centrally located will increase.
Well here's the raw ridership data broken down by riders per MSA in the year. not saying its the best possible but probably better than anything else. it doesn't take into account effeciency of the systems, but probably does take into account the popularity of the systems and the commitment to them from local govts. With the caveat that Pittsburgh and Bufflao are not midwest, but were included in this thread as being close enough to include.
Data is from APTA.
Chicago - 50.7 riders per MSA popluation per year
Pittsburgh -27
Minneapolis - 24.5
Buffalo - 23
Milwaukee - 21
Cleveland - 16
St. Louis - 14.5
Columbus - 9.5
Cincinnati - 6.9
Detroit - 5.3
Indianapolis - 4.7
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