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RTA blows Louisville's system, whatever it's called, out of the water, so it's no surprise to see certain posters denigrating it. Really not even close though. The disrespect RTA gets is pretty uncalled for. It's arguably the best midwestern system outside of Chicago (Minneapolis gets tons of undue praise for having two somewhat useful light rail lines that most people use to go to Target Field; people like new shiny things in cities that have been pre-ordained as "good").
I don't know one soul who commutes on a scooter. Scooters are absolutely not a game changer in any city. They are a novelty. That's about it. For the record, that doesn't mean I'm against them, but to pretend they will redefine urban transportation is delusional.
Really? I just went there from Chicago on a quick getaway and I was quite impressed. It's a small system, but runs 24 hours a day and during most hours it comes every 10 minutes which is key.
It goes through central Minneapolis, University of Michigan, central St Paul, the state Capitol, some dense areas of the city, Fort Snelling, the huge VA Complex, both terminals at the airport and the Mall of America. There's also a large newer area between the mall and airport with a few stops that they are developing out in a dense fashion with offices and hotels, etc.
For being two simple lines they were lucky that a lot of the big hitters in the metro area are kinda lined up on an axis and those two lines are very useful for a lot of things.
Really? I just went there from Chicago on a quick getaway and I was quite impressed. It's a small system, but runs 24 hours a day and during most hours it comes every 10 minutes which is key.
It goes through central Minneapolis, University of Michigan, central St Paul, the state Capitol, some dense areas of the city, Fort Snelling, the huge VA Complex, both terminals at the airport and the Mall of America. There's also a large newer area between the mall and airport with a few stops that they are developing out in a dense fashion with offices and hotels, etc.
For being two simple lines they were lucky that a lot of the big hitters in the metro area are kinda lined up on an axis and those two lines are very useful for a lot of things.
University of Michigan? How dare you!
Thanks for adding the VA and Fort Snelling. There is no doubt that the two lines do an excellent job in regards to connecting major employment and entertainment destinations.
Sounds exactly like clevelands rta in terms of connectivity. One gets credit. The other doesnt.
Nice try.
Right, they both hit a lot of the major sites which are good attributes of both systems, so I think it’s accurate to say both systems have fairly good coverage in terms of what their lines cover compared to many of the other cities mentioned. I think the Prof is right in that one issue for Cleveland which accounts for RTA’s lower ridership compared to the Twin Cities is there needs to be more jobs and development in downtown Cleveland. Another is operating hours and frequency which I think needs to be well expanded for RTA with regards to both the bus and rail systems.
With that, I think one can make the argument that the system in terms of raw infrastructure, coverage and capacity for Cleveland’s RTA is among the best of these cities outside of Chicago, but for whatever reason both immediate (like funding) and further up the chain (like lack of municipal, state, and federal focus) has made it so important factors like operating hours and frequency not make better use of what should by all right’s be a very good system.
Sounds exactly like clevelands rta in terms of connectivity. One gets credit. The other doesnt.
Nice try.
Yeah, several stadiums that only employ several thousand and attract millions. Most importantly though, the two lines connect people to major employment centers - over 163,000 people work in downtown Minneapolis; over 72,000 in downtown St. Paul; roughly 87,000 at MSP International; over 26,000 at the U of M; 11,000 at the MOA, etc...
Right, they both hit a lot of the major sites which are good attributes of both systems, so I think it’s accurate to say both systems have fairly good coverage in terms of what their lines cover compared to many of the other cities mentioned. I think the Prof is right in that one issue for Cleveland which accounts for RTA’s lower ridership compared to the Twin Cities is there needs to be more jobs and development in downtown Cleveland. Another is operating hours and frequency which I think needs to be well expanded for RTA with regards to both the bus and rail systems.
With that, I think one can make the argument that the system in terms of raw infrastructure, coverage and capacity for Cleveland’s RTA is among the best of these cities outside of Chicago, but for whatever reason both immediate (like funding) and further up the chain (like lack of municipal, state, and federal focus) has made it so important factors like operating hours and frequency not make better use of what should by all right’s be a very good system.
Usually the problem isn’t the rail system it’s self it’s the bus feeder system. High ridership rail lines operate like Trunk lines.
Harvard Square station or Kenmore station in Boston are good examples of this. It’s not so much the immediate area that drives ridership but people taking the bus in from Arlington, Brighton, Watertown etc.
Minneapolis’s big advantage is it’s busses haven’t atrophied like the RTA has. You basically have to have an origin and destination along the rail line to make it useful. Minneapolis is a bit better about that.
Also it’s kind of odd the RTA has 1 proper Downtown station
Usually the problem isn’t the rail system it’s self it’s the bus feeder system. High ridership rail lines operate like Trunk lines.
Harvard Square station or Kenmore station in Boston are good examples of this. It’s not so much the immediate area that drives ridership but people taking the bus in from Arlington, Brighton, Watertown etc.
Minneapolis’s big advantage is it’s busses haven’t atrophied like the RTA has. You basically have to have an origin and destination along the rail line to make it useful. Minneapolis is a bit better about that.
Also it’s kind of odd the RTA has 1 proper Downtown station
In theory, RTA has one downtown station in Tower City. In fact, it actually has several more, with the Waterfront Line -- with 2 stations, in particular, near downtown office buildings: Flats East Bank (Ernst & Young tower) and North Coast/E. 9th at City Hall, North Point, Erieview, the Celebrezze Federal Building tower, etc. (the smaller, newly-converted Accenture office building is steps from WFL's Settlers Landing stop)... However, ridership on the WFL remains low. I've seen lot of office workers bypass WFL stations (particularly the aforementioned FEB and North Coast) for parking lots and garages, respectively. Not sure why this is because the Rapid lines have free parking at stations accessible to a fairly wide swath of the metro area -- many drivers coming via freeways or suburban roads are 15 mins or less from a Rapid station. I suspect because of Cleveland's overall moderate traffic may play a role... This is supported by the fact that when there are big events like sporting events (esp Browns football), parades, festivals, St. Patrick's Day and the like, people pack the trains -- including WFL trains as well.
And yes, RTA's feeder bus frequency as been cut way too low on many lines. The greatest train-to-bus activity is only in a few spots, notably W.25-Ohio City, which is a transit up where 8 or 9 different routes come through near the Red Line station, with multiple routes (which = greater frequency) serve W. 25th South and where the no. 22, a 24/7 line, has pretty good frequency. West Blvd-Cudell and the Stokes-Windermere and Van Aken-Warrensville Rapid terminals also have strong train-to-bus transfers as well. All the other stations -- not so much. Some, like Shaker Square, have high pedestrian traffic because of the high number of apts and other multiple-unit residences in the area, while others, like the aforementioned stations at/near the ends of lines, rely heavily on autos parking at free RTA lots -- and this has long been a Cleveland rapid transit trait even preexisting RTA itself.
Guys I said "undue praise" for the twin cities. I'm not saying the system is bad. My point was that people automatically say positive things about the transit there, but not Cleveland when if you actually look at the two, they are very similar. Only Cleveland has heavy rail in addition to 2 light rail lines. Also a solid BRT line that's 24/7.
Usually the problem isn’t the rail system it’s self it’s the bus feeder system. High ridership rail lines operate like Trunk lines.
Harvard Square station or Kenmore station in Boston are good examples of this. It’s not so much the immediate area that drives ridership but people taking the bus in from Arlington, Brighton, Watertown etc.
Minneapolis’s big advantage is it’s busses haven’t atrophied like the RTA has. You basically have to have an origin and destination along the rail line to make it useful. Minneapolis is a bit better about that.
Also it’s kind of odd the RTA has 1 proper Downtown station
Been using the health line a lot the last 2 months. I think it really does fill those downtown stations, it's just not rail. But the health line frequency is great and not a hard line to transfer too. I take the health line from around severance hall to E 9 every day. It fits much nicer than walking to the red line stop at University Circle and going to tower city then walking to E 9.
Guys I said "undue praise" for the twin cities. I'm not saying the system is bad. My point was that people automatically say positive things about the transit there, but not Cleveland when if you actually look at the two, they are very similar. Only Cleveland has heavy rail in addition to 2 light rail lines. Also a solid BRT line that's 24/7.
Absolutely. I also think the free downtown trolleys are a key component, too. They go everywhere downtown, interface well with the Rapid and run on easy-to-ID fixed routes highly visible bus stops. And really, Cleveland's downtown is quite compact and you can comfortably walk to many businesses, govt. offices and hot-spot destinations from Tower City/Public Sq... All told, RTA is comprehensive enough so that one could live quite well without a car in many parts of Cleveland (and some close-in burbs as well). You really can only say this in any other Midwestern major city besides Chicago (and maybe St. Louis, in certain areas) ... I know several people who do, and don't miss their tin-Lizzies one iota.
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