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More people moved to FL than any other state last year—not all retirees, either.
If one’s life ambition is to be a fast food worker or Uber driver and shoot for living in a slum, I agree—you can do better than Miami. Curious how many, if any, fit that description here on CD. Either that or see if cities are still giving out one way bus tickets to CA.
Pre-retirement, it seems more middle class people are moving to cities like Phila for cost reasons/ more bang for the buck whereas more wealthy pre-retirement people are fleeing Northeast and CA high tax states/SALT limits for FL and elsewhere with no state income tax. I say pre-retirement because they can afford to do it now vs having to wait until retired, when even more relocate for cost/tax and weather reasons.
You've been scratching your head over some of the blowback you got in response to your initial statement, and the passage of yours I just boldfaced should give you a clue as to the source.
My takeaway from that initial comment was, "If you're rich, Miami is fantastic!" What you went on to say seemed to me to put Miami in the class of "superstar cities" that only the very rich and very poor can afford to live in.
San Francisco is the leader of this pack. New York and Boston are not far behind.
Those Brooklynites moving to Philadelphia are indeed doing so for the reason you give here. I know that my initial response could be interpreted as an argument that the poor should be able to live in beachfront apartment towers too, and as I support "inclusionary housing," you could characterize it in that fashion without being wrong. But it was the middle class I had more in mind: they're getting squeezed out of the superstar cities, to their detriment, I'd argue.
Philadelphia isn't in that league yet. God willing, it never will be.
Edited to add: But if I had to live in a slum, like BostonBornMassMade, I'd take Philadelphia's over Miami's, even if some of them do look more bombed-out than Liberty City does. As a matter of fact, the neighborhood I live in is overhwhelmingly (80%) African-American and poor (neighborhood-wide MHI: ~$25k/year). But four blocks from my own apartment (a converted floor of a rowhouse), I can walk into an area of large Victorians, Colonials and Dutch Colonials that sell for $500k and up and whose residents are anything but poor (most of them also African-American). In the neighborhood's southwest quadrant one finds similar pockets, and most of its northwest quadrant contains families with MHIs in the upper $50k/low $60k range along with a well-kept National Register and city historic district (most of this quadrant is racially integrated). Oh, and 5% of this neighborhood's households earn >$125k/year. I doubt that one can find a similar "slum" in Miami.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 12-09-2019 at 11:31 AM..
Pre-retirement, it seems more middle class people are moving to cities like Phila for cost reasons/ more bang for the buck whereas more wealthy pre-retirement people are fleeing Northeast and CA high tax states/SALT limits for FL and elsewhere with no state income tax. I say pre-retirement because they can afford to do it now vs having to wait until retired, when even more relocate for cost/tax and weather reasons.
Different data for you. Moved to Philly upon retirement in Houston about 9 years ago. Housing in the core is much more expensive here, but it’s worth it. And you’re right - I did move here for the weather (among other reasons). I was escaping Houston’s long hot summers for 4 seasons.
After thinking about it, I don’t know of anyone in the Fortune 50 company I worked for who moved to Florida. It’s a bit of a cliche for those who could afford more interesting destinations such as the PNW, Colorado, Texas Hill Country, San Diego, the Maryland Eastern Shore and in my case, Philly. Most of us wanted to leave the heat and humidity - not seek out more of it.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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Now you are putting words in my mouth..it’s not only super wealthy and super poor who live here with nothing in between—just like my dining choices are NOT limited to Thomas Keller or Burger King. Plenty of professionals are not in the top 1-3% and get by fine here, just like Miami’s lower median income does not mean everyone here works in the tourism industry or no good paying jobs exist. Think I’ve mentioned that dozens of times over the years when suggesting median income is but one and only one measure of wealth. I believe I also said, more than once, Philadelphia might be a better place to start out for many (unless one is in law, medical, or finance positions—of which there are many here) whereas Miami—since it costs more—might be better for some to move to later in life after they have built up their wealth and career path. Simple common sense.
As for it being on par with other alpha cities, it is one and it’s desirable geographical location and climate is reflected in real estate prices along with a number of people having primary or secondary homes here. Market forces in effect.
Just because one was born in NYC or SF or LA or Miami does not mean they are entitled to be able to live in nice areas of those or other cities 20 years down the road. Markets and prices change—nobody is forcing anyone to stay in a city they cannot afford. It is up to the individual to make ends meet or seek alternative, lower cost options better suited for their budget. Basic economics..and more desirable places tend to cost more money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
You've been scratching your head over some of the blowback you got in response to your initial statement, and the passage of yours I just boldfaced should give you a clue as to the source.
My takeaway from that initial comment was, "If you're rich, Miami is fantastic!" What you went on to say seemed to me to put Miami in the class of "superstar cities" that only the very rich and very poor can afford to live in.
San Francisco is the leader of this pack. New York and Boston are not far behind.
Those Brooklynites moving to Philadelphia are indeed doing so for the reason you give here. I know that my initial response could be interpreted as an argument that the poor should be able to live in beachfront apartment towers too, and as I support "inclusionary housing," you could characterize it in that fashion without being wrong. But it was the middle class I had more in mind: they're getting squeezed out of the superstar cities, to their detriment, I'd argue.
Philadelphia isn't in that league yet. God willing, it never will be.
Edited to add: But if I had to live in a slum, like BostonBornMassMade, I'd take Philadelphia's over Miami's, even if some of them do look more bombed-out than Liberty City does. As a matter of fact, the neighborhood I live in is overhwhelmingly (80%) African-American and poor (neighborhood-wide MHI: ~$25k/year). But four blocks from my own apartment (a converted floor of a rowhouse), I can walk into an area of large Victorians, Colonials and Dutch Colonials that sell for $500k and up and whose residents are anything but poor (most of them also African-American). In the neighborhood's southwest quadrant one finds similar pockets, and most of its northwest quadrant contains families with MHIs in the upper $50k/low $60k range along with a well-kept National Register and city historic district (most of this quadrant is racially integrated). Oh, and 5% of this neighborhood's households earn >$125k/year. I doubt that one can find a similar "slum" in Miami.
Last edited by elchevere; 12-09-2019 at 12:05 PM..
Different data for you. Moved to Philly upon retirement in Houston about 9 years ago. Housing in the core is much more expensive here, but it’s worth it. And you’re right - I did move here for the weather (among other reasons). I was escaping Houston’s long hot summers for 4 seasons.
After thinking about it, I don’t know of anyone in the Fortune 50 company I worked for who moved to Florida. It’s a bit of a cliche for those who could afford more interesting destinations such as the PNW, Colorado, Texas Hill Country, San Diego, the Maryland Eastern Shore and in my case, Philly. Most of us wanted to leave the heat and humidity - not seek out more of it.
On her ignore ..... still coastal Florida is helped by the COASTAL BREEZES. But if I could afford it. OMG YES in retirement. Love Chicago. Would love to do summer there and winter Ft Lauderdale to the Keys. But a dream.
I won't be affording Center City Philly like this poster either. So no way choosing a row-home there in a more iffy area. Got plenty dirt-cheap ones by me and New Yorkers and Philadelphians moving in too. But I can do much more then that by me too. Still visit my favorite cities and CC Philly included.
I'd doubt I'd chose Florida if young .... unless independently rich or on my parents money. But yes to retirement. So to each his/her own. Only thing is affording a campground in the interior. HOT in summer for sure vs a Coastal setting. But knew locals who did it and were happy. But I'm a young fit 60-yr old who loves a beach and ocean Breese. Tank-top, shorts and flip-flops in summer even in PA. I rather not be covered up for winter. Not that I'm a sun-worshiper either.
Now you are putting words in my mouth..it’s not only super wealthy and super poor who live here with nothing in between . Plenty of professionals are not in the top 1-3% and get by fine here, just like Miami’s lower median income does not mean everyone here works in the tourism industry or no good paying jobs exist. Think I’ve mentioned that dozens of times over the years when suggesting median income is but one and only one measure of wealth. I believe I also said, more than once, Philadelphia might be a better place to start out for many (unless one is in law, medical, or finance positions—of which there are many here) whereas Miami—since it costs more—might be better for some to move to later in life after they have built up their wealth and career path. Simple common sense.
As for it being on par with other alpha cities, it is one and it’s desirable geographical location and climate is reflected in real estate prices along with a number of people having primary or secondary homes here. Market forces in effect.
Just because one was born in NYC or SF or Miami does not mean they are entitled to be able to live in nice areas of those or other cities 20 years down the road. Markets and prices change—nobody is forcing anyone to stay in a city they can not afford. It is up to
The individual to make ends meet or seek alternative, lower cost options better suited for their budget.
Regarding careers in law and medicine, Philadelphia is not only a good place to start out but also a good place to rise in those fields.
We have a healthcare and biomedical research ecosystem here that's exceeded by only Boston's and New York's, with three large medical schools (one of them the nation's first and a perennial Top 10 institution), at least three other medical schools (including one that began life as a school of pharmacy, one of a few in the country), preeminent teaching hospitals (including the Top 10 teaching hospital of that Top 10 medical school and the Top 20 one attached to the No. 2 medical school hereabouts) and several large pharmaceutical companies headquartered in the region. Miami can't hold a candle to that.
"Philadelphia lawyer" entered the language way back in the 19th century and the city has a large and active legal community, including at least two large firms that are among the 100 largest in the country.
I understand your point about birth not giving you a right to live in the prime parts of a city. I tend to be critical of "dream hoarders" who reserve all the goodies that promote upward mobility for themselves, however. We may be talking about two different things here, but I think they overlap.
But you're right about people seeking options that fit their budget. Which brings us back to those Brooklynites.
Location: Miami (prev. NY, Atlanta, SF, OC and San Diego)
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Glad we have common ground...and Miami, too, provides a good career path for those starting out and rising in medicine (U of Miami Health Complex). U of Miami Law in no way shape or form has the national recognition or job placement of top 10 U of Penn Law but those who graduate from it seem to have good marketability in South Florida. Miami might not have an elite business school, like Wharton, but it does have a significant international banking presence in Brickell, some Northeast hedge funds are relocating here and Forbes listed Miami as its top city for small business growth in 2019:
So it’s not the brain dead, tourism only, part time/seasonal city (not something you have accused it of) that it used to be 30 years ago. There are definitely opportunities in both “sixth boroughs”. It is the non professionals who seem to have more difficulties making ends meet and / or enjoying themselves in Miami.
Trust me, I would have preferred popping quaaludes, chasing hot U of Miami coeds in the dorms while listening to the Grateful Dead all day 40 years ago rather than freezing my balls and studying my a*s off at Cornell but there was an opportunity cost with the latter turning out to be a better decision if I wanted to be more likely to afford living in nicer sections of nicer (warm or otherwise) cities down the road in the absence of a family business I could take over. Nothing wrong with delayed gratification, be it educational choice or moving to a more expensive city if and when you can afford it or even want to. One should definitely stay within their means. People do seem willing to pay a premium for a cosmopolitan city with a subtropical environment—it does not come cheap. The fact many foreigners find Miami desirable and/or wish to park their money in a safe US haven city drives up prices as well. There are cheaper warm weather cities but some, not all, lack the cultural amenities and geographical proximity that Miami offers.
Also agree with DavePa about coastal FL—summers are quite tolerable with afternoon breezes—it’s when you start getting a few miles inland that you get noticeably warmer (less breezes and more rain) and intolerable. That’s been the biggest pleasant surprise to me thus far living here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
Regarding careers in law and medicine, Philadelphia is not only a good place to start out but also a good place to rise in those fields.
We have a healthcare and biomedical research ecosystem here that's exceeded by only Boston's and New York's, with three large medical schools (one of them the nation's first and a perennial Top 10 institution), at least three other medical schools (including one that began life as a school of pharmacy, one of a few in the country), preeminent teaching hospitals (including the Top 10 teaching hospital of that university and the Top 20 one attached to the No. 2 medical school hereabouts) and several large pharmaceutical companies headquartered in the region. Miami can't hold a candle to that.
"Philadelphia lawyer" entered the language way back in the 19th century and the city has a large and active legal community, including at least two large firms that are among the 100 largest in the country.
I understand your point about birth not giving you a right to live in the prime parts of a city. I tend to be critical of "dream hoarders" who reserve all the goodies that promote upward mobility for themselves, however. We may be talking about two different things here, but I think they overlap.
But you're right about people seeking options that fit their budget. Which brings us back to those Brooklynites.
Last edited by elchevere; 12-09-2019 at 12:49 PM..
Philadelphia has a pretty robust middle class for a major city-no doubt. It's Just what middle class looks like in Philly/NYC/Boston doesn't look like middle class to the rest of the country. IN Philly in particular it looks older, grittier and more modest than compared to typical American suburbia-or even typical American cities that aren't 400 years old.
Philly Center City and across the river at Penn/Drexel is very cosmopolitan. The rest of the city much less so. Nobody is going to move from elsewhere in the US and live in the slums.
This is an outdated stereotype. South Philly, No Libs, Fairmount, Fishtown, Manayunk, Chestnut Hill, Mt Airy, and so forth are all fall from “slums,” yet are not within CC/UCity.
Glad we have common ground...and Miami, too, provides a good career path for those starting out and rising in medicine (U of Miami Health Complex). U of Miami Law in no way shape or form has the national recognition or job placement of top 10 U of Penn Law but those who graduate from it seem to have good marketability in South Florida. Miami might not have an elite business school, like Wharton, but it does have a significant international banking presence in Brickell, some Northeast hedge funds are relocating here and Forbes listed Miami as its top city for small business growth in 2019:
So it’s not the brain dead, tourism only, part time/seasonal city (not something you have accused it of) that it used to be 30 years ago. There are definitely opportunities in both “sixth boroughs”. It is the non professionals who seem to have more difficulties making ends meet and / or enjoying themselves in Miami.
Trust me, I would have preferred popping quaaludes, chasing hot U of Miami coeds in the dorms while listening to the Grateful Dead all day 40 years ago rather than freezing my balls and studying my a*s off at Cornell but there was an opportunity cost with the latter turning out to be a better decision if I wanted to be more likely to afford living in nicer sections of nicer (warm or otherwise) cities down the road in the absence of a family business I could take over. Nothing wrong with delayed gratification, be it educational choice or moving to a more expensive city if and when you can afford it or even want to. One should definitely stay within their means. People do seem willing to pay a premium for a cosmopolitan city with a subtropical environment—it does not come cheap. The fact many foreigners find Miami desirable and/or wish to park their money in a safe US haven city drives up prices as well. There are cheaper warm weather cities but some, not all, lack the cultural amenities and geographical proximity that Miami offers.
Also agree with DavePa about coastal FL—summers are quite tolerable with afternoon breezes—it’s when you start getting a few miles inland that you get noticeably warmer (less breezes and more rain) and intolerable. That’s been the biggest pleasant surprise to me thus far living here.
If you're thinking research and academia, Philadelphia is very high up there even though people associate Philadelphia with a more blue collar identity. It's not just the research universities in the city and the area, but also a lot of institutions that are prominent in their field, like the American Law Institute, and large corporations with their own R&D budgets. Miami has been improving steadily in some ways, but it's a pretty large gap between the two when it comes to this.
If you're thinking research and academia, Philadelphia is very high up there even though people associate Philadelphia with a more blue collar identity. It's not just the research universities in the city and the area, but also a lot of institutions that are prominent in their field, like the American Law Institute, and large corporations with their own R&D budgets. Miami has been improving steadily in some ways, but it's a pretty large gap between the two when it comes to this.
It's still hard to compare cities with totally different ethic make-up and one a MAJOR Tourist Metro destination. Even with Chicago it is difficult though you know I'm partial to Chicago.
Like I said..... in a perfect world with BIG $$$ in retirement. It is hard to beat South Florida Coastal regions, or just family rich. Trump seems to agree. But NO WAY I want to use political rhetoric or Politicians. Just a mention. Loved each trip to South Florida I made.
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But yes to retirement. So to each his/her own. Only thing is affording a campground in the interior. HOT in summer for sure vs a Coastal setting. But knew locals who did it and were happy. But I'm a young fit 60-yr old who loves a beach and ocean Breese. Tank-top, shorts and flip-flops in summer even in PA. I rather not be covered up for winter. Not that I'm a sun-worshiper either.
