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Ok, but I'm sorry, that is meaningless. By "uban area" Phoenix is more dense than Boston as well. What is that supposed to mean? The context this came up in was that attractions in Milwaukee are closer together and more walkable than in Phoenix. That remains true regardless of "urban area" population density.
I've been on CD for years and when people usually speak about a city, they are often addressing the entire urban fabric. Most people in cities don't live in the CBD or surrounding neighborhoods which is where "downtown" usually is and they tend to drive or take public transportation to downtown before they start walking. Sure, Phoenix doesn't have a historic downtown like most cities as it grew post-automobile. It's relatively newer in comparison, but it's been growing with infill tremendously and has neighborhoods that are growing. And in regards to the urban area, sure it's multi-nodal. These are primarily towns that grew together, not simply suburbs that just popped up. I can spend one weekend in downtown. Another in Tempe. Another in Scottsdale. Another at Westgate. Another in Gilbert, Arcadia, Chandler, midtown PHX, North Scottsdale, Arrowhead, Mesa, Glendale,...and so on. There are always things to do and places to go without spending it in the same environment each weekend. There are literally attractions spread across the entire valley and having a dense urban area as a whole allows for planned coordination with public transportation and a connected grid of roadways that helps to mix the jobs, housing, shopping, and attractions. Proponents of density always argue that the more dense a city is, the less farmland and water we'll use. In the case of Phoenix, the continued population growth has allowed us to actually use more farmland within the metro (which uses a large portion of water in the valley) and as a result, less water. Our state (and cities) have one of the best water management systems in the country and we use less water now despite the population growth than we did decades ago.
I've been on CD for years and when people usually speak about a city, they are often addressing the entire urban fabric. Most people in cities don't live in the CBD or surrounding neighborhoods which is where "downtown" usually is and they tend to drive or take public transportation to downtown before they start walking. Sure, Phoenix doesn't have a historic downtown like most cities as it grew post-automobile. It's relatively newer in comparison, but it's been growing with infill tremendously and has neighborhoods that are growing. And in regards to the urban area, sure it's multi-nodal. These are primarily towns that grew together, not simply suburbs that just popped up. I can spend one weekend in downtown. Another in Tempe. Another in Scottsdale. Another at Westgate. Another in Gilbert, Arcadia, Chandler, midtown PHX, North Scottsdale, Arrowhead, Mesa, Glendale,...and so on. There are always things to do and places to go without spending it in the same environment each weekend. There are literally attractions spread across the entire valley and having a dense urban area as a whole allows for planned coordination with public transportation and a connected grid of roadways that helps to mix the jobs, housing, shopping, and attractions. Proponents of density always argue that the more dense a city is, the less farmland and water we'll use. In the case of Phoenix, the continued population growth has allowed us to actually use more farmland within the metro (which uses a large portion of water in the valley) and as a result, less water. Our state (and cities) have one of the best water management systems in the country and we use less water now despite the population growth than we did decades ago.
It also further highlights the typical bias of city design, there is this underlying perception that a single large central urban core that typically comes with insane congestion, pricing, and other problems is the only way to design a city. Anything else is written off as sprawl, when presenting a logical alternative look at how nodal city design can work it's always written off as "nothing but sprawl". In reality, day to day life in the Phoenix metro is very convenient and filled with equally as many interesting areas to explore. Transportation works beautifully and it's remained relatively affordable while becoming the 13th largest metro in the area. There are multiple active urban areas connected by rail, more to come soon, which are thriving. Street Car is allowing Tempe to quickly become a very walk-able city in addition to downtown.
While I personally want downtown Phoenix go grow larger and denser, which it is, I'm not at all interested in living the old school traditional city lifestyle again. It can be okay to visit but can be a PITA to get around in.
What are you arguing? Have you been to Milwaukee at all? It's a pre-war city with a dense, walkable urban core. Outside the city is borderline rural. Phoenix is a sprawling post war sun belt city with medium density that goes on for miles.
Everyone knows that Phoenix is a much bigger city overall, but it's nowhere near as dense as Milwaukee. Milwaukee has over 6k ppsqm over it's entire city limits. Phoenix Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site.
Wow those Milwaukee neighborhoods are tiny compared to how they've grouped Phoenix neighborhoods. So we could just change how the neighborhood is defined in Phoenix and come up with much higher numbers. According to this site the densest neighborhood in Phoenix, Alhambra with 130K people, has more people than the top 10 in Milwaukee combined.
The top 10 densest neighborhoods in Milwaukee have:
Muskego Way: 12K total people
Murray Hill: 6K
Clarke Square: 8K
Licoln Vlg: 13K
Lower E Side: 13K
Hist Mitchell St: 12K
Avenues West: 9.1K
Burnham Park: 8K
Saint Joseph: 7K
Uptown: 6K
Let's talk a bit more about public transportation. We've mentioned that Milwaukee likely has better and more cohesive/traditional urban fabric overall, due to being an older, traditional city. However, one area where Phoenix appears to potentially have an edge, that hasn't been mentioned, is with this. I see from Wiki, at least, that Phoenix overall had 65 million riders on it's transit in a recent year compared to Milwaukee's 15.5 Million. Granted, there's a substantial population difference present there, too, but that is a sizable difference. Phoenix also has 28.2 light rail miles, compared to 2.1 miles of streetcar that Milwaukee appears to have. I tend to have more midwestern/eastern biases/sensibilities here, but I feel like this is still something significant worth mentioning and discussing. In Phoenix, it appears one can get pretty quickly between the Airport and Downtown, Tempe, Papago Park, Mesa, Encanto Village and Uptown. It certainly isn't world and maybe not even national class, but it is a useful amenity that appears to be a point in Phoenix's favor, and perhaps makes up for some of the relative sprawl. I'm guessing a lot of riders are Arizona State students, and having that campus there helps Phoenix as a city tremendously.
As an aside/sports point, I have to say that from a basketball standpoint, Jrue's steal on Booker and the transition to Giannis' alley-oop has to be one of the more exciting/athletic transitions in NBA Finals history. Great competitive series thus far.
Let's talk a bit more about public transportation. We've mentioned that Milwaukee likely has better and more cohesive/traditional urban fabric overall, due to being an older, traditional city. However, one area where Phoenix appears to potentially have an edge, that hasn't been mentioned, is with this. I see from Wiki, at least, that Phoenix overall had 65 million riders on it's transit in a recent year compared to Milwaukee's 15.5 Million. Granted, there's a substantial population difference present there, too, but that is a sizable difference. Phoenix also has 28.2 light rail miles, compared to 2.1 miles of streetcar that Milwaukee appears to have. I tend to have more midwestern/eastern biases/sensibilities here, but I feel like this is still something significant worth mentioning and discussing. In Phoenix, it appears one can get pretty quickly between the Airport and Downtown, Tempe, Papago Park, Mesa, Encanto Village and Uptown. It certainly isn't world and maybe not even national class, but it is a useful amenity that appears to be a point in Phoenix's favor, and perhaps makes up for some of the relative sprawl. I'm guessing a lot of riders are Arizona State students, and having that campus there helps Phoenix as a city tremendously.
Yes, and it's only expanding as is the density in Tempe and downtown Phoenix.
Tempe streetcar, 3-miles covering 14 stops in downtown Tempe including ASU's main campus and job centers/residential centers along Mill Ave to Apache.
SkyTrain, will total nearly 5 miles once the under construction portion is completed. They're currently adding a 2.5 mile extension connecting to terminal 3 and the rental car center, the system already connects to LRT at Washington Street.
The 28 mile light rail line is expanding to 66 miles with approved tax payer funds. The capital I-10 West phase 1, South Central Extension and Northwest Extension are up now.
If we're strictly talking about their downtowns, Milwaukee is easily better. MKE has the beautiful lakefront, way better restaurants and bars, and more interesting architecture. I have been very disappointed with downtown Phoenix the few times I've visited. However, if we're comparing metros, Phoenix is the clear winner for their suburbs. The surrounding areas of Phoenix are very desirable with lots of amenities, many great restaurants and gorgeous desert scenery. The weather really comes down to preference. IMO, MKE winters and Phoenix summers are both rough. But MKE summers and Phoenix winters are absolutely beautiful.
I haven't been to Milwaukee, but I've heard it's beautiful.
I did Phoenix for 3 days and was worried I'd be bored. But instead I had a blast and every day was brimming with stuff to do. Need to go back to check off some of the surrounding stuff I missed.
Arizona State Capitol (coincided with a Trump rally, so slightly unnerving)
Camelback Mountain (incredibly hiking and right by the city. Drained me of every ounce of energy)
Desert Botanical Garden (much bigger and more expansive than I expected. Loved it)
Heard Museum (slightly underwhelming, but better than the National Museum of American Indian we have here in D.C.)
Hole in the Rock (very cool, but I visited during COVID but pre-vaccine and nobody was wearing masks)
Maricopa County Courthouse (beautiful architecture)
Musical Instrument Museum (jaw-dropping, and where I learned to love the theremin)
Mystery Castle (was expecting tacky, but wound up loving it)
Papago Park (very nice rock formations and you can go hiking here all day)
Phoenix Art Museum (not bad for a newer city, but more akin to a second-tier East Coast art museum)
Roosevelt Row (normal quirky hipster district with cool murals)
Rosson House Museum at Heritage Square (such a pretty mansion!)
Scottsdale Old Town (very lively)
South Mountain Park (for sunset views of Downtown)
Taliesin West (Frank Lloyd Wright's desert beauty)
I also haven’t been to Milwaukee (Even though I’d really like to) so take this with a grain of salt. But I would think Phoenix has a ton more to do for visitors. For me I’d rather visit Milwaukee if I was in a walking/exploring mood. Better urban experience for a day trip. OTOH, Phoenix seems better for a multi day vacation. The one time I visited it was only for a few hours and I felt like I didn’t get to do half of what I wanted to.
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