Philly vs. Chicago (Boston, Florida, metro, live)

[jpdivola]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

However: I'm gonna ding both you and jpdivola for just glossing right over the Black parts of both.

Bronzeville. 52d Street. Cottage Grove Avenue. "TSOP" (Gamble & Huff hit factory). Coltrane. Ebony. Broad/Erie/Germantown ("Creed"). Barack Obama. Yadda yadda. Those figure in at all?

Haha, fair point. I thought my post was already a little too long so I decided to cut it off. I started to write some stuff, but I didn't have anything super interesting to say. Chicago is a key center Black culture, but Philly's not exactly a slouch in that department.

I was also going to say Chicago seems more pronounced north-south Black-White racial divide. Philly seems like more integrated at least in a geographic/physical space sense. But, I wasn't actually sure if that is true or just my perception.

[Nafster]

Originally Posted by Fitzrovian

Last time I was in Chicago, pre-COVID, Fulton Market wasn’t what it is today but yeah I hear that’s one of the hottest areas in Chicago today. Gotta check it out next time.

I hear Wrigleyville is always busy though funny enough the one time I went there a few years ago — during an away game — it was absolutely dead. I remember we popped into a sports bar across the street from the ballpark and there literally wasn’t a single person in there. I was kinda shocked. It might have been a holiday weekend though, so we probably caught it on an off day.

Lincoln Park, Lake View always seemed very quiet to me, especially given how much people always talk them up. Wicker Park has very nice vibe in the vicinity of the El station but dies down very quickly if you walk farther out.

An interesting take. I've never heard these neighborhoods described as quiet. Every neighborhood in most cities isn't absolutely crazy 24/7, 365, and COVID has changed the day life and nightlife in all big cities, but mostly the night life.

NYC also isn't the same, but I think Chicago/NYC/LA will build themselves back eventually.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by jpdivola

Haha, fair point. I thought my post was already a little too long so I decided to cut it off. I started to write some stuff, but I didn't have anything super interesting to say. Chicago is a key center Black culture, but Philly's not exactly a slouch in that department.

I was also going to say Chicago seems more pronounced north-south Black-White racial divide. Philly seems like more integrated at least in a geographic/physical space sense. But, I wasn't actually sure if that is true or just my perception.

No, it's true.

Those vast, sharp racial divides are a Midwestern city thing in general. North Side/South Side in St. Louis (only with the races reversed from where they are found in Chicago). East of Troost/West of Troost in Kansas City. I believe Milwaukee also has a north/south divide. I think there's even a similar divide in Omaha, where my Mom was born.

Segregation in Philadelphia definitely has more of a patchwork-quilt quality to it. These blocks here are Hispanic, those over there five blocks are Black. There's a sizable Korean neighborhood right next to a heavily Black one in upper North Philly, and just to the south of the Korean one, you enter an area where most residents are Hispanic.

And Philadelphia has something none of those cities I just listed has: a neighborhood whose residents decided they would resist blockbusting, panic selling and white flight and welcome their Black newcomers back in the 1950s. Mount Airy today is 65/35 Black/white, and there is a socioeconomic gradient in it (its less-affluent southeast quadrant is just about all Black), but the neighborhood trades on its reputation for integration to this day. (And it does have one of the few neighborhood bars I've been in anywhere where one finds an integrated crowd: McMenamin's Pub, in the heart of its business district, a neighborhood institution since 1936.)

I witnessed the failure of a similar effort in Kansas City in the 1970s: a group called the 49-63 Neighborhood Coalition made a vailant effort to prevent total racial turnover of the neighborhood between those two streets on the north and south, Troost on the west and The Paseo on the east. That area's all-Black now.

[Fitzrovian]

Originally Posted by Nafster

No -those neighborhoods- they aren't sleepy.

I've lived in Chicago (and NYC and LA).

I don't think a YouTube video that could be taken at any time and day during the week (when most people are often working, or during COVID) would be a good representation of it and that isn't really proof. I think those walking tour videos purposely go off hours to avoid pedestrians so that they could get a could, clear walking tour of the neighborhood.

Your videos from NYC are technically off topic from the thread and also - NYC has 3x the population of Chicago so expecting Chicago to have equal foot traffic to it doesn't add up.

Really? And is it only in Chicago that they are looking to avoid pedestrians, but not in other cities? Because in the other cities' videos I posted you see people everywhere. In the Chicago ones, for the most part you just don't. 95% of the time it's empty sidewalks and kind of a deserted feel. I wouldn't have posted them had they not matched my personal experience, but they do.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by Duderino

That's all very true, but I think it's more than fair to acknowledge that street-level tightness and continuity is noticeably more cohesive in Philadelphia overall.

Chicago excels greatly in urban stature and grandness, FAR more than Philly. But Philadelphia's ace-in-the-hole will always be human scale and more inherent pedestrian form.

Are there no YouTube tours of East Passyunk Avenue?

[skintreesnail]

^^^Yeah, even in the cold months it seemed pretty lively, at least on nice days. I'd also say manayunk, Northern liberties and fishtown as well as pretty much all the neighborhoods around center city. Germantown ave through chestnut hill and mt airy too, though maybe sleepier, maybe since they're not as dense. I haven't been to west Philly during the pandemic, but i would assume Baltimore ave and around Clark park would see some foot traffic, just not sure how much.

[personone]

Originally Posted by Nafster

An interesting take. I've never heard these neighborhoods described as quiet. Every neighborhood in most cities isn't absolutely crazy 24/7, 365, and COVID has changed the day life and nightlife in all big cities, but mostly the night life.

NYC also isn't the same, but I think Chicago/NYC/LA will build themselves back eventually.

Completely agree. The amount of hustle/bustle in neighborhoods has decreased dramatically since COVID. Chicago had very strict mandates as well, which may have impacted it even more. Some of it is slowly coming back now, but still not at the level that it was pre-pandemic. I hope that one day that the same level of vibrancy will come back.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by personone

Completely agree. The amount of hustle/bustle in neighborhoods has decreased dramatically since COVID. Chicago had very strict mandates as well, which may have impacted it even more. Some of it is slowly coming back now, but still not at the level that it was pre-pandemic. I hope that one day that the same level of vibrancy will come back.

I feel like it's the opposite: there's been a marked increase in pedestrian traffic in outer neighborhoods and an obvious decline in CBDs. More people are home than ever so I see more people out and about walking to midday yoga, running errands, etc. Everything seems more crowded now.

[Marv95]

I'd rather reside in Chicago proper than Philly proper yet strongly prefer Phiiy's burbs to Chicago's.

[Fitzrovian]

Originally Posted by mwj119

Take a step back and understand you are using anecdotal experiences and random YouTube videos. I’m telling you, you’re off here.

If Wrigleyville, or Old Town, or West Loop are sleepy and lack foot traffic and overall vibrancy, then Park Slope and Italian Market absolutely should not be included in your rebuttal. Nore should/would 99.9% of city neighborhoods in North America.

These are extremely dense, vibrant, walkable, commercially active areas by any standard.

I guess it depends on what you mean by vibrancy. West Loop has always had a hot restaurant scene and with the development of Fulton Market it’s now got great nightlife as well. So in terms of peak vibrancy concentrated in small areas i am sure it packs a good punch and probably surpasses Park Slope. Same with Wrigleyville/Lake View. But if we compare West Loop and Lake View to Park Slope as a whole — say take a random Tuesday afternoon stroll and compare the foot traffic — Park Slope will more than hold its own against them (or any other non-downtown Chicago neighborhood for that matter). And it shouldn’t come as a surprise, given that Park Slope has a higher population density than any Chicago neighborhood.