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My favorite thing about Indianapolis is College Ave which has a rapid bus transit line built down the middle. Every mile or so at key intersections, they have little restaurants and cafes on each corner. The bus line is new and eventually will connect the city's main walkable neighborhoods from Broad Ripple in the north, to downtown (Mass Ave area) to Fountain Square in the south.
It's got a ways to go to evolve into something really cool, but you can see how over time this set-up should end up bringing the city's key neighborhoods into a single package. In other words, if you live along the bus line, your community is not just your immediate street but all the little neighborhoods and restaurant enclaves up and down the line.
I was immediately charmed by the whole concept because it takes advantage of Indy's biggest asset which is a huge swathe of turn-of-the-century neighborhoods lined with homes with trees and big front porches, virtually uninterrupted for miles. The missing ingredient has been the walkable commercial/restaurant/gallery parts to pull together these neighborhoods. Now with the the bus line and all the little enclaves, and larger restaurant/bar districts at the top, middle, and bottom, as a total entity they may end up really having something special.
This is an interesting thread. It is ironic that Indianapolis has been growing while Cleveland has roughly half the population it had in 1970. Something is amiss. If Cleveland's strength over Indianapolis is its vitality then why would people leave the city in droves? This isn't a put down but just an observation because I think Cleveland is a fine city.
Really? I was actually just came back from Cleveland. I stayed the whole weekend. I did notice the empty streets especially on the east side of downtown like Asiatown or Kirtland Goodrich. I ventured out to the burbs like Parma, Lakewood, and up to Mentor by the lake. I notice much more car traffic there than in Cleveland. Is Brooklyn considered part of Cleveland? (not Brooklyn NY of course).
The downtown area, or the Flats, and the area of Playhouse Square became pretty lively relatively speaking on the weekend. The Monsters were playing Fri and Sat, so bars/restaurants had guests. I think Cleveland can really use an MLS team. They can play in either Progressive Field or the football field.
What is the vacancy rates in Cleveland? I be curious to find out. The houses and front lawns did not look very maintained in the areas I was in which is east of Playhouse Square. It improves as you get closer to Cleveland Clinic it seems.
Last edited by NJ Brazen_3133; 11-08-2022 at 09:37 PM..
Glad you decided on Cleveland! It's a really interesting city. I would highly recommend staying in University Circle, which has a treasure trove of cultural attractions, architecture, parks, and dining. Some of my favorite places are The Cleveland Museum of Art (massive, VERY impressive, and free of charge), Severance Hall, The Botanical Gardens, MOCA, Little Italy, Lakeview Cemetery (where John D. Rockefeller, Elliot Ness, and president James Garfield are buried). There are a few great restaurants in University Circle (L'Albatros for one), and in nearby Little Italy there are many great restaurants, bakeries, and cafe's. My top choices there would be Presti's Bakery and Michaelangelo's. It's also not far from Coventry Village in Cleveland Heights, which is worth a visit.
From University Circle you can take the Red Line rapid into Downtown, or continue on to Ohio City. I'd definitely recommend checking out Ohio City, as it's very uniquely Cleveland. The West Side Market, and Great Lakes Brewery are must-sees, but the whole neighborhood is very walkable and really vibrant. From there you can bike, scooter, or take a bus south to Tremont, which is a really interesting gentrifying urban neighborhood with some great dining options. You could also head North and West into the Detroit Shoreway neighborhood, which has more great restaurants, and access to Edgewater Park with great views of Lake Erie and Downtown Cleveland.
Is University Circle the Case Western Reserve campus? I did go there. It is really nice. I stayed on Euclid just west of Cleveland State. I found it odd that between the Cleveland Clinic, and Cleveland state along Euclid, the streets were not very busy.
I also drove through Little Italy. It was interesting because the people I see working the restaurants and parking had a swagger that reminded me of old school NY Italians
If you think of the core of the Indy metro area as Marion County (Indy) and the adjacent suburban counties (Hamilton, Boone, Hendricks, Johnson, and Hancock); the population increased 707k people between 1970 and 2020. Madison County was not part of the Indy metro area in 1970, but was later added to the metro area and accounts for 130k people. Madison County would fit into that umbrella of "demographers increased the metropolitan net size." Indy metro has undeniably outperformed metro Cleveland over the last 50 years in terms of population.
Outperformed? That's a pretty strong statement and by what metric has Indy "outperformed" Cleveland?
The 2 cities have evolved differently. Indy has certainly grown from cowtown to a major city after annexing its entire county, while Cleveland, a post-industrial power, is in recovery mode, industry-wise moving from heavy industry into more medical, tech, and service industry. If Cleveland were to annex Cuyahoga County it would soar past Indy -- 1.25M to 887K. Metro area-wise, Indy has a slight edge 2.1M to Cleveland's 2.0M. But of course, that's not counting Cleveland's next-door Akron area which, if included in Cleveland's metro area (which many believe it should be), metro Cleveland would boost to 2.6M.
Outperformed? That's a pretty strong statement and by what metric has Indy "outperformed" Cleveland?
I said "Indy metro has undeniably outperformed metro Cleveland over the last 50 years in terms of population" which is based on the metric I outlined in the post you quoted. That quoted comment was in response to you having said "I'm not certain 1 million people rushed to Indy over the ensuing time period, or, because of its increased size, demographers increased the metropolitan net size of Indy's metro area to increase its population". I'm not sure which part you don't understand. We were talking about growth, is the fact that I assumed you'd know what I meant where the confusion is? The counties that made up Indy metro in 1970 gained people, metro Cleveland lost people. It's just that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
The 2 cities have evolved differently. Indy has certainly grown from cowtown to a major city after annexing its entire county, while Cleveland, a post-industrial power, is in recovery mode, industry-wise moving from heavy industry into more medical, tech, and service industry. If Cleveland were to annex Cuyahoga County it would soar past Indy -- 1.25M to 887K. Metro area-wise, Indy has a slight edge 2.1M to Cleveland's 2.0M. But of course, that's not counting Cleveland's next-door Akron area which, if included in Cleveland's metro area (which many believe it should be), metro Cleveland would boost to 2.6M.
In the last 50 years, Cuyahoga County lost 456k people while Marion Co gained 185k people. Considering that, the statement "If Cleveland were to annex Cuyahoga County it would soar past Indy" seems a tad precarious.
Remember, this whole topic was started because someone brought up the fact that Indy metro has been gaining people compared to Cleveland metro who has been losing people. Indy merging with Marion County helped Indy avoid/hide a death spiral in the 70s, but it doesn't explain why the metro area has been attracting people. I'd say present day, Unigov is actually hurting Indy. The outer townships are doing ok, but they're in general getting their collective asses kicked by the suburbs. Marion County doesn't have the resources to match what Carmel and Brownsburg are doing, and as a result, people who prefer suburban areas are choosing neighboring counties over Marion Co. Indiana as a state, currently has a lot of baked in policies that are detrimental to Indy. We'll need help at the statehouse to overcome that, and considering the relationship between Indy and Indiana, that seems unlikely without a coalition of regional cooperation.
I said "Indy metro has undeniably outperformed metro Cleveland over the last 50 years in terms of population" which is based on the metric I outlined in the post you quoted. That quoted comment was in response to you having said "I'm not certain 1 million people rushed to Indy over the ensuing time period, or, because of its increased size, demographers increased the metropolitan net size of Indy's metro area to increase its population". I'm not sure which part you don't understand. We were talking about growth, is the fact that I assumed you'd know what I meant where the confusion is? The counties that made up Indy metro in 1970 gained people, metro Cleveland lost people. It's just that simple.
"Outperformed" is the wrong verbiage. Cities are not companies producing products, they are permanent human settlements. The comparison of Indianapolis to Cleveland, strictly looking at today's population as an absolute metric, is also bogus. The 2 cities are of nearly completely different characters affected by economic and technological shifts in the nation as a whole. Cleveland was an industrial powerhouse attracting and creating individuals of tremendous wealth -- "Old Money" -- several of whom established the legacy mass transit, cultural and attractive residential areas of today.
Indy was a sleepy smallish (cowtown) state capital. It grew rapidly as the state attracted substantial corporate interests tied to the state capital. Yes, Eli Lilly was already there, but took advantage and grew as a result. And then the State created UniGov for its host city incorporating Indy's county and creating a large city, designed to generate more tax dollars, and attract fed dollars and corporate interests. The city also built-up heavily on regional and Midwestern sports interests. The city made an attractive offer to the late Robert Irsay to lure Baltimore's NFL Colts to town in the 1980s. And now, positioned near the center of the Big 10 colleges (well, what used to be the Big 10 which now, with UCLA and USC coming, is a national college conference), built large indoor stadia which host such events as the Big 10 football championship, and several NCAA basketball Final Fours -- it is the Hoosier State, after all.
I'm hating on Indy. Like its similar neighbor, Columbus, OH, it undertook a long-term strategy for growth, which has been largely successful. But also, because it is a new major metro area that grew largely with automobile growth and freeway expansion, there's a widespread lack of urban feel-- walkable neighborhoods, and quality mass transit. Several neighborhoods look like farm communities swept inside the city limits -- many have no sidewalks and have poor sewage systems which flood easily. Such is the problem with such rapid growth. There are a few urbanized neighborhoods either abutting downtown or, of course, Broad Ripple, a disconnected edge district which I find to be highly overrated.
"Outperformed" is the wrong verbiage. Cities are not companies producing products, they are permanent human settlements. The comparison of Indianapolis to Cleveland, strictly looking at today's population as an absolute metric, is also bogus. The 2 cities are of nearly completely different characters affected by economic and technological shifts in the nation as a whole. Cleveland was an industrial powerhouse attracting and creating individuals of tremendous wealth -- "Old Money" -- several of whom established the legacy mass transit, cultural and attractive residential areas of today.
Indy was a sleepy smallish (cowtown) state capital. It grew rapidly as the state attracted substantial corporate interests tied to the state capital. Yes, Eli Lilly was already there, but took advantage and grew as a result. And then the State created UniGov for its host city incorporating Indy's county and creating a large city, designed to generate more tax dollars, and attract fed dollars and corporate interests. The city also built-up heavily on regional and Midwestern sports interests. The city made an attractive offer to the late Robert Irsay to lure Baltimore's NFL Colts to town in the 1980s. And now, positioned near the center of the Big 10 colleges (well, what used to be the Big 10 which now, with UCLA and USC coming, is a national college conference), built large indoor stadia which host such events as the Big 10 football championship, and several NCAA basketball Final Fours -- it is the Hoosier State, after all.
I'm hating on Indy. Like its similar neighbor, Columbus, OH, it undertook a long-term strategy for growth, which has been largely successful. But also, because it is a new major metro area that grew largely with automobile growth and freeway expansion, there's a widespread lack of urban feel-- walkable neighborhoods, and quality mass transit. Several neighborhoods look like farm communities swept inside the city limits -- many have no sidewalks and have poor sewage systems which flood easily. Such is the problem with such rapid growth. There are a few urbanized neighborhoods either abutting downtown or, of course, Broad Ripple, a disconnected edge district which I find to be highly overrated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
As this Google Street Views photo shows, not only do some Indy streets not have sidewalks, they don't even have curbs! (but do have drainage ditches)
I agree. The rural nature of Indianapolis caught me off guard when I first visited. It looked like a few places I have visited in the Deep South. Picket fences, barns, and large lots are prevalent even close to the interstates. It is a very easy city to get around compared to some of its peers. Cleveland looks more urban and felt like it should have been a bigger city, given its bones.
You probably could find the occasional street without a sidewalk or drainage ditch, in a lot of places. Not just Indy, but also in other metro areas as well. I mean infrequently, I see streets in the outer parts of Cook County, IL that didn't ever properly get a sidewalk, or curb. So what?
And yes I don't deny that the city of Cleveland probably is more urban and dense, than Indianapolis. Which to me would make sense, since Indy didn't start to have a lot of population growth till the late 20th century. Cleveland had a head start on population growth, for sure.
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