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LMAO you don’t get the point at all. The reason I say Downtown is because it is literally the size of every single walkable neighborhood in Orlando combined. You can’t just say Downtown Orlando is an answer when it’s so clearly not. That’s why we keep saying Downtown Houston. Again you can’t expect a whole few square miles to compare to a neighborhood that is a few blocks. 3500 people live in Downtown Orlando, 2200 live in South Eola, Lake Eola Heights has 1500 people, Colonial town is 1400, Thornton park has 600. Downtown Houston literally alone starts off at around 12000. Midtown Houston is around 15000, Montrose is at 29000. That’s why you can’t sit there and mislead people into saying Orlando has more neighborhoods that are “fully committed to pedestrian infrastructure.” But you wouldn’t know better as you continue to try and mislead people. Post Midtown Square + Camden City Centre are literally the size of an Orlando walkable neighborhood.
Is the size of a singular Orlando Walkable neighborhood. You can carve out 6 similar sized neighborhoods in Downtown alone. You can do 4th ward + Post Midtown square as well. Then the area from Whole Foods to Mid Main. There’s plenty more in the other neighborhoods as well. These would all be considered different neighborhoods in Orlando. That’s why you’re making a faulty comparison.
Let’s put this into context.
Let’s say we carve out a bunch of small 2000 person pockets of density from Houston and call them different neighborhoods. Then I’m going to say Houston has more neighborhoods committed to fully pedestrian infrastructure than Denver (a more developed core). Do you not see an issue with this at all??? This is essentially what you’ve been doing this whole thread.
Look literally nobody disagreed that Houston punches below its weight in this regard. But there’s literally no objective way Orlando comes ahead in this regard.
You have yet to show me the 3 or 4 S Eola's you could fit inside of Midtown. There is not a single block that compares to the 3 tiny blocks in S Eola in Midtown or Neartown-Montrose or any other Houston neighborhood you can think of.
Like be honest, are you serious posting up those 2 links of streets adjacent to the very tiny block of Gray street? Where's the mixed retail, bars on Baldwin street? Where's the clubs the vibrancy on Crosby? You're showing rows of apartment complexes and townhomes.
You see the mix of residential, retail, lifestyle in one small vicinity that creates walkable vibrant areas? Not just that small stretch of Gray street? You see storefronts close to the sidewalk encouraging pedestrians to walk the neighborhood? Even if you go down Main street pass the Ensemble Theater, you do have those storefronts that invite walkability but that's a tiny section of Main street in Midtown. And even that part of Midtown has too many lots on one side, homelessness and empty businesses to say it's more walkable.
For crying out loud there's a big ass Cadillac dealership in midtown, on top of the Kroger built for the suburbs and smaller shopping centers with parking lots. Maybe you need to get out of Houston more if you think that's what people mean when we refer to urban walkable places. It's just patches of that walkability in midtown. The size of Midtown shouldn't be an excuse for the suburban lite layout mixed in with patches of walkability.
That's why you can't use the size argument to validate your point. Example, There's plenty of New Orleans neighborhoods with a population size similar to those Orlando neighborhoods you just named. Now, I'm not suggesting Orlando is anywhere close to New Orleans when it comes to walkability. But you think anybody but Houstonians are gonna say, "You can fit 3 French Quarters in Downtown Houston because Downtown Houston has a bigger population than French Quarter". Hell no, New Orleans easily passes the eye test in every metric.
So you can't move the goal post and try to use size to win this argument. Because even if we carved out a bunch of small pockets of Houston's most walkable neighborhoods to 2000 they still wouldn't have that kind of infrastructure. Simply show me. Show me Houston's answer to this:
If this was Houston, the next block over would've been a gas station, a car dealership and a strip center with a Subway, Buffalo Wild Wings and a CVS and a random hair salon all in one. And you don't want to admit it but you know I'm telling the truth.
It's embarrassing to mention commercialized "luxury" apartment complexes such as Post or Camden to make an argument that that's walkable.
Either that or some inferiority complex.
Houston is the only place I have seen with reverse boosters. They going to try to discredit everything the city is ahead in.
Dude bending over backwards to highlight his city in a negative and untrue fashion.
I can understand if it was compared to Philly or even Miami, but to go so hard to try to say Orlando of all places has more walkable places? Has so be done inferiority complex.
I'm sorry if I'm honest about my feelings towards Houston. Houston is one of the few cities I know where people are overly sensitive about any criticism of their city. I pay taxes here too, I think I deserve to be critical if it's warranted.
I mean hell, did you build the infrastructure of Houston? I didn't think my opinions of Houston's lack of walkable areas would hurt so many feelings. LOL and your last statement is exactly the issue. Ignore the fact that Orlando's most walkable neighborhoods are in fact more walkable than Houston's most walkable neighborhoods. It's the fact that it's Orlando that's bothering you. And yeah don't even bring up Philly or even Miami cause Houston's not even in that category.
I have no dog in the fight. Which btw, you said nothing when I said Houston has much more to offer than Orlando. I even voted for Houston over Orlando. But when I made the statement about walkability which we KNOW HOUSTON IS NOTORIOUS FOR WALKABILITY all of a sudden I'm supposed to be a homer just because?
Quote:
Originally Posted by whereiend
I have to admit that my time in Orlando is limited to the tourist areas and theme parks, but looking at Walkscore, it does not seem very walkable to me. The total population at 80+ Walkscore is about 10k. Houston is also middling in this metric, but still, Midtown Houston alone basically has the same population as all of Orlando's walkable areas combined.
If you go by walkscore than my point becomes even more clearer. Houston gets a walkscore of 47. Orlando gets a walkscore of 41. But Houston only has 2 neighborhoods with a walk score in the 80s and their highest one is Neartown-Montrose at 86. Orlando has 1 in the 90s but 5 in the 80s. Also Orlando's walkable neighborhoods are in close proximity to one another. Houston's walkable areas are more scattered around and cut off by highways and freeways within the loop.
Where Houston makes up in the "walkability" area over Orlando is neighborhoods like Gulfton/ Westchase/ Meyerland/ Spring Branch/ Sharpstown/ Uptown...Houston has more of those "somewhat walkable" areas than Orlando does. But if you ever been to any of those areas in Houston than there nothing to write home about. Nobody is moving to any of those areas because of their walkability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atadytic19
The guy went to S Enola and thought he was in pedestrian heaven. That happens when you live in the burbs and go on vacation. You don't realize that each and every city from small to enormous have these little pockets.
I've been living in Houston since 2009 and lived all over the city. Maybe you should get out of Houston more if you think Houston even has those little pockets you're comparing it too. If those are pockets, Houston has spots. I really call them Islands in a sea full of urban suburbia. But a lot of Houstonians live in this bubble and get overly defensive when you critique anything about the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJac
Many of us have been on C-D long enough to know the motives of certain posters. Some wish they lived in other cities (not sure what is taking so long to move!). Others try hard not to appear to favor Houston just because they live here. It's fairly transparent!
Yes my motives is to be as honest as possible and not a homer. And hey me and my wife's family are here in Houston. Family keeps us here even though I like Houston. Even love some things about Houston. But because I'm outspoken about things I dislike or hate about Houston than hey I'm the bad guy. LOL
Even if I move though, I'll still voice my opinions about Houston. Nothing anyone can do about that.
I'm sorry but I'm not going to big up everything about Houston just because I live here. I'm not bigging up Orlando either. I know exactly what it is. But the little it has IMO is more impressive than what Houston has to offer as far as walkable vibrant neighborhoods. It seems Houstonians are the emotional ones because I'm praising little Orlando over big city Houston.
I made entire posts entire posts Orlando’s advantage. That’s not going to work on me lmao. Having the more walkable experience isn’t one. Weird that Orlando’s biggest booster here even recognizes that.
Those tourist attractions aren’t just tourist attractions. They’re what define Orlando and also what employed a huge chunk of the population. Yes, they factor in to Orlando’s Highway functionality.
I’m not joining this google maps battle. That last one I see is a small stretch within central Orlando. Very little of Orlando looks like that. might As well compare that to the Museum Park-TMC corridor which has much more of an experience for a pedestrian than that area. Neither Museum Park nor South Enola are a representation of their city.
If you haven’t seen the “step one block further and there’s a gas station and a fast food joint” then you haven’t seen much of Orlando. Orlando has world class resorts next to gas stations and fast food joints
The one walkability point Orlando wins in favor of Houston is the consistency of sidewalks. There are blocks within central Houston without them, Orlando for the most part maintains them at a good consistency
I made entire posts entire posts Orlando’s advantage. That’s not going to work on me lmao. Having the more walkable experience isn’t one. Weird that Orlando’s biggest booster here even recognizes that.
Those tourist attractions aren’t just tourist attractions. They’re what define Orlando and also what employed a huge chunk of the population. Yes, they factor in to Orlando’s Highway functionality.
I’m not joining this google maps battle. That last one I see is a small stretch within central Orlando. Very little of Orlando looks like that. might As well compare that to the Museum Park-TMC corridor which has much more of an experience for a pedestrian than that area. Neither Museum Park nor South Enola are a representation of their city.
If you haven’t seen the “step one block further and there’s a gas station and a fast food joint” then you haven’t seen much of Orlando. Orlando has world class resorts next to gas stations and fast food joints
The one walkability point Orlando wins in favor of Houston is the consistency of sidewalks. There are blocks within central Houston without them, Orlando for the most part maintains them at a good consistency
Those tourist attractions are just that though TOURIST attractions. Rather the theme parks define what people think or if they're the major employer in the msa, the reality is that for regular citizens living in Orlando there's a lot more to the area than just theme parks.
Again, you could have used a real walkable area that was influenced by Disney such as celebration where people actually live, work and play.
And it's fine if you don't join the google map battle. You couldn't prove your point if you tried with google anyway. I'll do it for you though. This is main street in TMC. A block from the Museum district(from Herman Park to be exact).
I've walked both sides from the Museum district to TMC when I use be more actively involved in photography. Can't really have an enjoyable pedestrian experience when your passing up a bunch of garages with cars going in and out of them. It's not the most ideal pedestrian friendly community. TMC is generally built for people in the medical industry or those visiting people in the hospital. Also Main street and Holcomb is definitely not built for pedestrians. Please explain how the Museum district-TMC corridor is much more of a pedestrian experience when you have one side mostly filled with garages and the other side is dirt sidewalks at the Rice University block while the other half is narrow sidewalks passing up hotels and medical office buildings?
The museum district itself is walkable. The residential neighborhoods adjacent to Rice and the museum district are very walkable and beautiful might I add but I don't put residential only areas in the walkable category. When we're talking walkable areas I'm talking specifically work, play, live, shop lifestyle neighborhoods.
Again, never did I say those few define what most of Orlando looks like. Just the little they do have is more impressive and more pedestrian friendly than what Houston has to offer in any walkable neighborhood here. Even acknowledging that fact is a problem.
The lack of cohesion of Houston's urban districts inside the loop is a valid criticism. I've pointed this out as well on here about Houston from time to time. It's a big weakness for Houston. You can name all of these areas but a car is needed to get to most of them. Houston has more built up areas than Orlando but the willingness to include the car in just about everything holds it back. Look at ROD? Why is front the Westheimer part of ROD fronted by a parking lot. What's the point of that actually? It looks like a strip mall. To much of Houston developments are island like as well.
You have yet to show me the 3 or 4 S Eola's you could fit inside of Midtown. There is not a single block that compares to the 3 tiny blocks in S Eola in Midtown or Neartown-Montrose or any other Houston neighborhood you can think of.
Like be honest, are you serious posting up those 2 links of streets adjacent to the very tiny block of Gray street? Where's the mixed retail, bars on Baldwin street? Where's the clubs the vibrancy on Crosby? You're showing rows of apartment complexes and townhomes.
You see the mix of residential, retail, lifestyle in one small vicinity that creates walkable vibrant areas? Not just that small stretch of Gray street? You see storefronts close to the sidewalk encouraging pedestrians to walk the neighborhood? Even if you go down Main street pass the Ensemble Theater, you do have those storefronts that invite walkability but that's a tiny section of Main street in Midtown. And even that part of Midtown has too many lots on one side, homelessness and empty businesses to say it's more walkable.
For crying out loud there's a big ass Cadillac dealership in midtown, on top of the Kroger built for the suburbs and smaller shopping centers with parking lots. Maybe you need to get out of Houston more if you think that's what people mean when we refer to urban walkable places. It's just patches of that walkability in midtown. The size of Midtown shouldn't be an excuse for the suburban lite layout mixed in with patches of walkability.
That's why you can't use the size argument to validate your point. Example, There's plenty of New Orleans neighborhoods with a population size similar to those Orlando neighborhoods you just named. Now, I'm not suggesting Orlando is anywhere close to New Orleans when it comes to walkability. But you think anybody but Houstonians are gonna say, "You can fit 3 French Quarters in Downtown Houston because Downtown Houston has a bigger population than French Quarter". Hell no, New Orleans easily passes the eye test in every metric.
So you can't move the goal post and try to use size to win this argument. Because even if we carved out a bunch of small pockets of Houston's most walkable neighborhoods to 2000 they still wouldn't have that kind of infrastructure. Simply show me. Show me Houston's answer to this:
If this was Houston, the next block over would've been a gas station, a car dealership and a strip center with a Subway, Buffalo Wild Wings and a CVS and a random hair salon all in one. And you don't want to admit it but you know I'm telling the truth.
It's embarrassing to mention commercialized "luxury" apartment complexes such as Post or Camden to make an argument that that's walkable.
Plenty of problems here. Let’s take a look.
1) You assume that Orlando doesn’t have the same problem with cohesion (which no one denied is a problem Houston faces). You literally couldn’t be further from the truth. This is literally a single block from one of your links.
2) Yet again faulty comparisons. I mean seriously comparing South Eola to the French Quarter to defend small neighborhood size has got to be the most comical thing I have seen in this whole thread. South Eola is literally a 3x3 block neighborhood. I mean you can literally walk the whole neighborhood either north-south or east-west in about 5-7 minutes. The same is absolutely false about the French Quarter. Even though it has about 4000 residents, it is actually able to sustain its walkability and urban design over so much of a larger area. Using the French quarter as an example to defend the small neighborhood size of South Eola just has an enormous multitude of problems. That’s why we have a problem comparing South Eola (a few blocks) to Midtown (a few square miles). The neighborhood is literally a 3x3 block box. When we say Post Midtown Square + Camden City Centre you need to recognize that the singular area would be an entire neighborhood in Orlando. The part with the CVS wouldn’t even be considered a part of the same neighborhood.
3) Don’t assume you know a single thing about me. It’s literally not hard to read my location tag. Saying stuff like “Maybe you need to get out of Houston more if you think that's what people mean when we refer to urban walkable places” is just downright comical to me considering I spend an equal amount of time in Houston and Chicago on a yearly basis. I am extremely familiar with Chicago and I think I know what urban and walkable are.
4) You bring up Walk Scores in other posts on this thread but this is where you’ve shot yourself in the foot. Walkscore deems a score of 70 to be “very walkable.”
Population living above a 70 walk score in both cities.
Orlando: 19,780
Houston: 148,793
And before you try and lie again like you did earlier, none of this includes Sharpstown, Gulfton, etc. Every single person counted in Houston’s calculation is living inside the loop. Ouch!
Those tourist attractions are just that though TOURIST attractions. Rather the theme parks define what people think or if they're the major employer in the msa, the reality is that for regular citizens living in Orlando there's a lot more to the area than just theme parks.
.
The theme parks in Orlando aren’t just theme parks. They are the biggest employer of the region, and a bigger local activity center than the central Orlando neighborhoods you’re posting.
I’ll leave it to you to realize their position in respect to central Orlando. The biggest focal points of Orlando (not just the theme parks) are all within a similar radius. Orlando as a whole is as if not more Highway centric than HOU given their locations. On that, it’s just you. As I see you misquoted me from other posters, I’ll let you get back to them on that.
1) You assume that Orlando doesn’t have the same problem with cohesion (which no one denied is a problem Houston faces). You literally couldn’t be further from the truth. This is literally a single block from one of your links.
2) Yet again faulty comparisons. I mean seriously comparing South Eola to the French Quarter to defend small neighborhood size has got to be the most comical thing I have seen in this whole thread. South Eola is literally a 3x3 block neighborhood. I mean you can literally walk the whole neighborhood either north-south or east-west in about 5-7 minutes. The same is absolutely false about the French Quarter. Even though it has about 4000 residents, it is actually able to sustain its walkability and urban design over so much of a larger area. Using the French quarter as an example to defend the small neighborhood size of South Eola just has an enormous multitude of problems. That’s why we have a problem comparing South Eola (a few blocks) to Midtown (a few square miles). The neighborhood is literally a 3x3 block box. When we say Post Midtown Square + Camden City Centre you need to recognize that the singular area would be an entire neighborhood in Orlando. The part with the CVS wouldn’t even be considered a part of the same neighborhood.
3) Don’t assume you know a single thing about me. It’s literally not hard to read my location tag. Saying stuff like “Maybe you need to get out of Houston more if you think that's what people mean when we refer to urban walkable places” is just downright comical to me considering I spend an equal amount of time in Houston and Chicago on a yearly basis. I am extremely familiar with Chicago and I think I know what urban and walkable are.
4) You bring up Walk Scores in other posts on this thread but this is where you’ve shot yourself in the foot. Walkscore deems a score of 70 to be “very walkable.”
Population living above a 70 walk score in both cities.
Orlando: 19,780
Houston: 148,793
And before you try and lie again like you did earlier, none of this includes Sharpstown, Gulfton, etc. Every single person counted in Houston’s calculation is living inside the loop. Ouch!
1) I never assumed Orlando doesn't have those issues. Why are you twisting my words around? My whole point is the little walkable areas ORLANDO has is more walkable than Houston's most walkable areas. How is that me saying Orlando doesn't suffer from a lack of cohesion? I know exactly what type of city Orlando is. You honestly think Houston's MOST WALKABLE AREAS are cohesively more pedestrian friendly than the few Orlando has. It's not. I'm not even lying that's a fact.
2) It's comical you can post up google map links of Orlando to try to prove your point but can't do the same for Houston. Why is that? Why can't you show me these pedestrian friendly neighborhoods in Houston that are easily more cohesive and more pedestrian friendly than those few in Orlando? Is Main street and that tiny block of Gray street the only ones you can show me with mixed retail, residential and restaurants? Are you going to show Rice Village a shopping center or an actual real neighborhood?
3) I didn't bring up Midtown first. Atadytic19 brought up Midtown first. And you followed it up by throwing out the outdated apartment complexes of Post Midtown Square and Camden City Centre. Atadytic19 posted up a picture of the one block of Gray street with mixed residential, retail and eateries. You can literally walk fast and tour that one walkable block in less than a minute. Yall gloated about that tiny block yet scoff at the 3 or 4 blocks that make up S Eola with that same combination. LMAO, talk about hypocrisy.
4) You put so much emphasize on population. I figured you'd contradict your argument once I brought up New Orleans. So size matters when it's Orlando but not New Orleans. LMAO
5) That part of CVS is Midtown though. That's midtown Houston for you. And that's the local CVS for residents living in Camden and Post.
6) You clearly don't spend enough time in Chicago. Maybe Chicagoland if you think Houston is more pedestrian friendly than the neighborhoods I posted in Orlando.
7) I didn't shoot myself in the foot I actually made my point ever more clear. Outside of downtown Houston, every neighborhood outside of that only has small pockets of cohesive truly pedestrian friendly areas. Everything else is interrupted infrastructure built for cars not foot traffic.
Btw, to drive the point home even further, the most cohesive neighborhood for walkability in Houston is downtown. Downtown Houston has a population of 16,655. Which is abysmal for a city it's size btw. Downtown Orlando with a city population under 500,000 has a downtown population of 14,236. Which is only a little less than a city with over 2 million people. You fail to realize that S Eola, Thornton Park, Lake Eola Heights, Central Business District and a few other neighborhoods make up Downtown Orlando. So yeah a larger cohesive area of walkability unlike Houston which are just Islands surrounded by urban suburbia layout.
So in the loop 148,793 live in a car centric environment with tiny walkable blocks that can't even get a 80 score rating on walkscore. LOL
The theme parks in Orlando aren’t just theme parks. They are the biggest employer of the region, and a bigger local activity center than the central Orlando neighborhoods you’re posting.
I’ll leave it to you to realize their position in respect to central Orlando. The biggest focal points of Orlando (not just the theme parks) are all within a similar radius. Orlando as a whole is as if not more Highway centric than HOU given their locations. On that, it’s just you. As I see you misquoted me from other posters, I’ll let you get back to them on that.
Of course they are the biggest employers and are important to Central Florida. My point is, it's not the only focal point to most citizens in Orlando on a day to day basis. This is why I asked you earlier when you brought up Orlando amenities blowing Houston out the water how often do residents venture to those theme parks?
Take for example Celebration. Disney is responsible for Celebration but Downtown Celebration is a legitimate community. Resident who rarely go to Disney probably venture into Downtown Celebration much more often than a Disney Springs. Most people I know from Orlando unless they have children rarely go to the theme parks. But I know they go to clubs and lounges in downtown Orlando every weekend. They'll go watch Orlando Magic play in Downtown. Also Orlando has a pretty big LGBQT community with tons of clubs, bars and lounges catered to them in downtown and other parts of the core of Orlando than any other part of Orlando outside of that area. Even people who work at Disney, on weekends will probably hit up the clubs, bars and lounges in the actual city limits.
So to day to day citizens I'm pretty sure non theme park areas are much more important to their day to day routine than what you're giving it credit for.
I'm still waiting for all those walkable areas in Orlando.
S Enola is a few blocks, equivalent to a corner of Midtown Houston. The poster from the Houston suburbs keep posting a lot of words but no receipts.
Where are these Orlando neighborhoods you speak of?
Midtown Houston alone has more walkable blocks than Orlando, and we haven't even touched downtown Houston, Heights, TMC etc.
Orlando City is only about 300K in 110 sq miles.
Inner loop Houston is about 500k in 90 sq miles.
Inner loop Houston has downtown, TMC, Greenway Plaza, Montrose, Parts of Uptown, Upper Kirby, Museum District/ Binz, Allen Parkway Corridor... with no equivalents in Orlando. Inner loop Houston daytime population swells to 5 times the size of all of the city of Orlando.
It's really not a contest in terms of structural density and population. I am not sure why the suburban Houston poster keeps going on and on without receipts.
TMC or Uptown alone blows away anything in Orlando. Heck suburban employment centers like The Energy Corridor and Greeenspoint would be big deals if they were in Orlando.
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