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I can tell you that for those of us not in NYC- it’s considered a status symbol. More than any suburb of NYC. We know Harlem is expensive if you want to live there at market rate and the brand and pinnacle is unparalleled. Same goes for many areas in Brooklyn.
Sometimes the outside looking in is different like that.
And that's sort of irrelevant, no? Harlem is not expensive compared to the rest of NYC, which is all we really care about. You're not going to impress anyone by saying you live in Harlem. I don't even agree that you'd impress anyone outside of NYC by saying you live in Harlem. It's not the flex you seem to believe it is.
Most Black people in the Tri-State area live in NYC so it's not some big deal to live in the city. People down there seem to make a much bigger deal of it it in my experience.
And that's sort of irrelevant, no? Harlem is not expensive compared to the rest of NYC, which is all we really care about. You're not going to impress anyone by saying you live in Harlem. I don't even agree that you'd impress anyone outside of NYC by saying you live in Harlem. It's not the flex you seem to believe it is.
Most Black people in the Tri-State area live in NYC so it's not some big deal to live in the city. People down there seem to make a much bigger deal of it it in my experience.
I think this is pretty subjective. I don't think it is a big deal to live in Sunset Park or Morrsiana but I just don't believe Harlem carries no meaning or prestige. It really seems that it does to people in the suburbs of NYC.
People do associate Harlem with expense outside of NYC at this point. The cats been out of the bag for a while now. Thats where 908's (and my) perspective is coming from.
I think this is pretty subjective. I don't think it is a big deal to live in Sunset Park or Morrsiana but I just don't believe Harlem carries no meaning or prestige. It really seems that it does to people in the suburbs of NYC.
We're starting to shape shift here. You are saying "carries no meaning," which is not the same thing as saying that a Harlem address is not some type of flex or status symbol. And now it feels like you're deflecting by saying what people outside of NYC think about it because you don't have any experience working and living in New York to have formed any opinion about what New Yorkers think about it.
New York as a whole is probably seen as expensive but I don't think Harlem in particular is seen as such. Also, I would say the outside perception of Harlem varies depending on who you're talking to. Even among many Black people, the perception is that it's still a ghetto, though a gentrifying one. It is popular among the young Black professional crowd but I don't think many people believe you need to be doing exceedingly well to live there. UWS or Chelsea would be a different story.
Besides, I am comparing my experiences living in both cities and how it appears to me. In my experience, living in DC is a much bigger deal than living in NYC. I'm not sure how you can be qualified to offer an opinion on the subject if you haven't lived in either city.
I understand this side discussion going on but how can we tie this back into Atlanta vs D.C in terms of black population within the city. Which I firmly believe Atlanta will have an higher percentage in 20-30 years.
We're starting to shape shift here. You are saying "carries no meaning," which is not the same thing as saying that a Harlem address is not some type of flex or status symbol. And now it feels like you're deflecting by saying what people outside of NYC think about it because you don't have any experience working and living in New York to have formed any opinion about what New Yorkers think about it.
New York as a whole is probably seen as expensive but I don't think Harlem in particular is seen as such. Also, I would say the outside perception of Harlem varies depending on who you're talking to. Even among many Black people, the perception is that it's still a ghetto, though a gentrifying one. It is popular among the young Black professional crowd but I don't think many people believe you need to be doing exceedingly well to live there. UWS or Chelsea would be a different story.
Besides, I am comparing my experiences living in both cities and how it appears to me. In my experience, living in DC is a much bigger deal than living in NYC. I'm not sure how you can be qualified to offer an opinion on the subject if you haven't lived in either city.
I lived right outside of DC and worked DC proper... and have (had) many friends in DC. Most people living in PG absolutely looked down on black people living in DC to some extent. I opted not to live in Harlem when I had the job offer. Ive been going to and through Harlem virtually my entire life for various reasons. its not some unfamiliar place even though I have never lived there. No one really puts any prestige on living in DC. Is not as big a deal as living in Harlem- its really not.
It is widely considered to be the poorest and most 'hood; black people in the area. I actually just saw a meme this morning that called Lamar Jackson-DC, Deshaun Watson-PG, and Russel Wilson as MoCo. What do you think that implies? DC people may be prdieful but in the DMV its not considered the crown jewel of black existence. For folks in the suburbs- like I was, its seen as place to go socialize and then go back some to your middle-class black professional community.
I know for a fact this is not the case with Harlem compared to other places in the NYC metro. Places like Newark, Irvington, East Orange, Brownsville, the Bronx and other places are all considered more rough and ghetto. Also, the gentrification of Harlem is in large part because people place weight and value on Harlem- that is why my brother moved there as opposed to a cheaper place he could have moved to in the Bronx. He picked Harlem because he was familiar with it and knew the amenities and the vibe.
The crowd is of is young black professionals. Almost no one I personally know under like 50 thinks Harlem is still a ghetto (most of the crime horror stories since the pandemic are concentrated in Brooklyn and the Bronx). Even the oldheads will tell you what its like now and what they've heard. When it comes to urban black professional destinations Harlem and Central Brooklyn are considered to be in a league of their own. UWS and Chelsea are irrelevant here. ..And you can see that in movies like the Best Man 3, and the show "Harlem" its super bourgeoise and polished in how its depicted. No equivalent depictions for Washington DC.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 04-05-2023 at 11:05 AM..
I was talking about young professionals, not parents raising children in the suburbs. Everyone knows a large chunk of young professionals will eventually find their way to the suburbs once they get married and have kids. But I'm talking about younger professionals.
Average earnings for Non-Hispanic Black Men with Bachelor's Degree or Higher (Ages 25 to 34)
Washington, DC - $92,708
Fairfax - $68,678
PG County - $66,012
Montgomery - $64,393
Arlington - $64,193
The average young, Black man with a college degree living in DC is making about 26K more than his counterpart in PG County. That's significant.
There are much more young black professionals in MoCo+PG than DC proper so that isn't a relevant statistic to this discussion. I've lived in Virginia, PG and DC. Nobody looks down on Laurel or PG as far as "status" goes, at least most black DC residents don't. I don't know where you're getting that from. In fact, many in DC still see moving to Maryland or Virginia as "moving on up". Owning property in DC is the only thing that may get you "status" from strangers.
If anything, it's A LOT more common for MD black folks to look down on those living in DC.
I hear you- I got it. I agree with my initial assertion that the city/suburb divide is more important than DC than it appears to be in Atlanta, but DC folks do leave DC- probably more so now than 20 years ago.
That doesn’t really make sense. People in DC left DC way more before than they do now. There was no shopping in DC 20 years ago so you had to leave DC just for groceries alone.
That doesn’t really make sense. People in DC left DC way more before than they do now. There was no shopping in DC 20 years ago so you had to leave DC just for groceries alone.
More DC natives and black people in general now live outside of DC, and there are more suburban retail and entertainment options as well, than 20 years ago. More mixed-use developments now. National Harbor/MGM. Arlington Development, Iverson Mall redevelopment.
I could be wrong- but I had a lot of people in my car.
Also, DC didn't have ANY grocery stores in 2003? I'm sure much of DC didn't (still kid of dont, IMO) but DC was already gentrifying 20 years ago and still had a large wealthy area, no?
I agree with this. People associate Atlanta with the suburbs and people in Atlanta embrace the suburbs so that makes sense. It doesn’t have the same dynamic a DC or NYC does with its suburbs where the city is superior to the suburbs from what I have observed. I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone say anything negative about living in the suburbs of Atlanta the way people in DC talk about living in Virginia or Maryland or people in NYC talk about living in New Jersey. That is perception though.
The reality will be different and I too agree the data and trends point to the Black population in Atlanta being surpassed soon. It will be interesting looking at this over the coming years.
I lived in DC and ATL and people don't shun the suburbs of DC. Fairfax County and Montgomery County especially, were derided when I lived there. PG county, on the other hand seemed more challenged or less liked for possibly two reasons,
1. it was racial animosity as it is a majority black county.
2. It lacks the higher-end amenities that have been available to residents of Fairfax & Montgomery Counties.
Within Fairfax, you have Reston and Falls Church, then close by Arlington and Alexandria. Not to mention both Airports are in VA, as is Arlington National Cemetery. You're closer to the best parts of the District as well.
There are much more young black professionals in MoCo+PG than DC proper so that isn't a relevant statistic to this discussion. I've lived in Virginia, PG and DC. Nobody looks down on Laurel or PG as far as "status" goes, at least most black DC residents don't. I don't know where you're getting that from. In fact, many in DC still see moving to Maryland or Virginia as "moving on up".
I disagree with that completely but I guess this would depend on your social circle.
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