Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It is an alpha city on the world stage. That is true. Its influence in the US has also declined in comparison to earlier in our lifetimes, that is also true. It’s not like these are mutually exclusive. Chicago was the clear number 3 favorite behind NYC and LA in the beginning of my life. Now it’s number 3 status is being debated with DC and the SF Bay Area. Even the big southern cities have considerably narrowed the gap that exists between them and Chicago. It doesn’t take away from Chicago’s greatness and Chicago will always be important but you can’t deny that other cities have considerably closed the gap between them and Chicago. It is no longer the clear number 3 that it used to be. I wouldn’t say Chicago is declining but it’s not growing as fast as the cities behind it, thus making the competition closer.
This is a very reasonable take that I agree with 100%. This was the point I was trying to make that got the poster defensive, but you stated it much more elegantly than me
It's all about the vibe - Cleveland still feels dead even though it has good bones, whereas Pittsburgh has areas that are on the up, but also areas that are still very depressing.
I can't speak on Pittsburgh, which I really like, because I haven't been there in a decade. But as for Cleveland, your assumptions are not accurate as things have accelerated in the last decade, esp in the last 3-4 years and esp in downtown and key close-in neighborhoods (as well as University Circle/Little Italy, which is farther away). So if you haven't visited Cleveland within that time period, you really don't know Cleveland. And I really wouldn't say Pittsburgh's 'rebirth' or 'lesser decline' puts the Burgh on that higher level than Cleveland.
Both cities are still technically in decline, but both are working their way back.
I can't speak on Pittsburgh, which I really like, because I haven't been there in a decade. But as for Cleveland, your assumptions are not accurate as things have accelerated in the last decade, esp in the last 3-4 years and esp in downtown and key close-in neighborhoods (as well as University Circle/Little Italy, which is farther away). So if you haven't visited Cleveland within that time period, you really don't know Cleveland. And I really wouldn't say Pittsburgh's 'rebirth' or 'lesser decline' puts the Burgh on that higher level than Cleveland.
Both cities are still technically in decline, but both are working their way back.
In terms of the inner city it’s pretty much undeniable Pittsburgh is in better shape than Cleveland. In terms of the metro area? Now that’s a debate. However people draw their conclusions based on like 3-4ish Sq miles so people I think do get a false impression Pittsburgh in head and shoulders above Cleveland
This is a great topic, and I doubt it's a coincidence that the thread was created by a Rochester NY native, hah. I look forward to reading through all the responses.
3 pages in and no one has mentioned New York in regards to decline. This board's historic East Coast/New York bias won't even allow the consideration of NY in decline in any aspect lol...
For clarity, I was born in '89 so I grew up and cane of age in the 90s and 00s, I'm black, and my entire upbringing, save a year in Memphis, was between California and mainly Virginia; these characteristics are relevant as the influences of all likely shaped the perceptive view I grew up with!
Greater NY MSA has grown by 19.55% in my lifetime, from the '90 Census thru the '20 Census, and the City of New York has grown by 20.23% in my lifetime during the same span. So in terms of population, and economically as well, NY hasn't suffered decline---->what I'm speaking of is NY's waning influence over the country as a whole, and point two, that while 20% growth over 30 years is healthy, numerous cities have exceeded that level of growth by multiples in thw same time frame...
The New York I grew up under was the place everybody wanted to be. It was the epicenter of hip hop, the epicenter of American fashion, the epicenter of American media. On just these three points alone:
In the last 30 years, hip hop has gone from a burgeoning but still niche genre, to not just the biggest American music genre, today hip hop is the most popular musical art form on the planet. It's an entire culture that was birthed in NY, and was a largely NY-dominant culture when the genre was less mainstream. As hip hop grew in popularity it also became less NY-centric, and this is proven in many ways...
This is so relevant to the point because hip hop is the music of the country. It's everywhere now, listened to across all demographics, crossed over into older genres that now incorporate hip hip into their form with regularity. It's the primary soundtrack of cinema of varying genres. It's influence has always been youthful, but back I'm the day it was nearly entirely youthful...
The kids who grew up on 80s and 90s hip hop, many are 40+, and what you have is a dynamic that didn't exist in '93---->50 year olds with hip hop as their primary musical choice...
Today, NY is still home to the legacy radio stations and legacy hip hop reputation in general, that it basically has across American pop culture. But NY isn't the first city most hip hip heads think of anymore. It's not the city setting the hip hop trends anymore, and hasn't for probably about 20 years now. It's been about 20 years of waning influence that continues to dwindle, contemporary NY hip hop borrows from other cities' styles more than the reverse...
I just think with how large hip hop is globally, this is a point worth mentioning. You don't have to go to NY to get a foot in the industry anymore. NY isn't even the most desirable place to go to anymore, whereas in generations past hip hop artists from far and wide trekked to NY to make it in the industry...
Fashion and media are much the same. NY is the ultimate legacy city, will always be relevant. The large conglomerates across numerous industries are mostly all headquartered in NY, but this is more a symbol of NY's legacy than NY's pop culture relevance today...
To be sure, I'm clearly not saying NY is no longer relevant. I'm saying it's relevance and influence is pretty dramatically reversed from what it was. I've known just as many people my age who moved to NY for the big city experience, as have moved to DC for the same, and I've known more people to try out Atlanta for that experience just the same. Once you get east of the Atlantic Seaboard, NY starts losing physical influence almost immediately. And when you west of The Mississippi NY's influence is almost undetectable. I've been out here in Vegas for two weeks and I've heard NY mentioned twice (Brooklyn by two different people)...
You know who I do hear alot about, is Los Angeles, almost everyday, and this harkens back to my post last year during my time in Boise, same dynamic. This board has always had a disconnect on LA's influence in reality compared to NY's, and how the two cities are perceived in comparison to each other. New York isn't a topic here, and this underscores that an individual's reality is largely regional. NY is ”The mecca” to everything on the Atlantic coast. That isnt how most of the rest of the nation views New York City...
People don't need NY's fashion nor media to set the trends because so much influential fashion and media are coming from elsewhere...
So I guess my point is, while the city hasn't declined, the popularity of the city has certainly decreased...
This is a really great post.
I would argue that COVID also contributed significantly. When work from home was suddenly (and still is) a new acceptable form of being able to conduct business, this was a game-changer for NYC, and I would think, going forward, other large city downtowns, which have supplied entertainment for the after work crowd. If the central business district now has a higher rate of vacancies, there's a cascade effect. It's going to be interesting to see what happens to commercial real estate in the coming years, not just in NYC, but other metros where there is a distinct (or plural) CBD.
That's a big challenge for downtowns, but might be a real positive for other mixed-use districts with large numbers of remote office workers. Now they're (we're) around all day, sometimes doing errands, grabbing coffee, or meeting for lunch near home vs. near the office.
I suspect that a lot of people facing WFH careers (those without kids at least) would prefer neighborhoods with stuff to do. Do you really want to be at a tract house all the time except for trips to the qwik-e-mart?
Agreed. Philadelphia is absolutely in the same boat.
At least Philadelphia got to see the Olympic torch relay in 1996. Pittsburgh was the only metropolitan area with at least 2,000,000 population to get left out. In fact, the only other metropolitan areas with at least 1,000,000 population to get left out were Virginia Beach/Norfolk (Hampton Roads) and San Antonio, both of which were just over 1,000,000 at the time. (Austin was still under 1,000,000 at the time.) That just goes to show how irrelevant Pittsburgh was in the 1990s.
Chicago is a great example of fading relevance. I was born in the 1990s and the Chicago of that era was far more nationally prominent as I understand it. You had the Bulls dynasty with one of the greatest runs in sports history, Michael Jordan at the forefront bringing enormous fanfare to the city. You also had Oprah Winfrey at the height of her career broadcasting from Chicago and bringing in a small media empire to the Midwest with Jerry Springer, Donahue, Judge Mathis. President Obama was born of this era.
But today it seems like Chicago’s rich cultural legacy has been overshadowed by its reputation as a violent, gang infested, decaying city, whether deserved or not. Nobody in my social circle has taken on the Windy City, instead favoring the Sunbelt or NYC/Boston to start their professional careers.
Seattle was also one of the biggest "it" cities of the 90s, if not the biggest. You had the super huge and influential Grunge movement coming out of there, with major labels storming Seattle signing everyone while in search of the next Nirvana or Pearl Jam.
As Pitchfork put it, "Grunge (i.e. the Seattle Sound) became the sort of once-in-a-generation phenomenon that permanently altered the sound of rock radio, turned the surplus-store discount rack into catwalk fodder, and inspired hordes of disaffected Gen Xers to grow their hair longer and shower less."
Then you also had all the Seattle coffee places - Starbucks, Tully's, Seattle's Best, etc - taking the country and world by storm. Seattle-centric movies like "Sleepless in Seattle" and "Singles" were suddenly popular. Even the biggest hip-hop single of 1992 was by Seattle rapper Sir Mix-a-Lot. It was called "Mecca" by Spin magazine and referenced as the "cool" city in shows like Seinfeld, Beavis and Butthead, and The Simpsons. Heck, even Dr. Evil had his headquarters at the top of the Space Needle. White suburban kids from across the country were clamoring to get flannel shirts and Doc Martins, the signature Seattle look. The 1999 WTO protests in Seattle were also infamous.
In hindsight, it's actually quite bizarre and unprecedented that a relatively isolated mid-sized city could have such an outsized cultural impact and influence (I don't think it would be possible today). It really had nowhere to go but down in terms of cultural relevance and, while it still punches above its weight in that category, Seattle today has nowhere near the cultural cache that it had in the 90s.
Now from an economic and urbanist standpoint, Seattle certainly has become more relevant than it used to be. Until the 1980s, it was a one-horse town with almost everyone working for Boeing or on a boat. The economy has diversified greatly since then and it is now considered one of the largest tech hubs in the country and the world. The number of skyscrapers and the amount of dense housing has exploded in recent decades. But in terms of cultural impact and relevance, I think it's fair to assume Seattle will never again reach the heights that it saw in the 1990s.
This is a very reasonable take that I agree with 100%. This was the point I was trying to make that got the poster defensive, but you stated it much more elegantly than me
Chicago’s a great city but I’ve realized a lot of times residents here get extremely defensive if someone points out one of its flaws. Lots of Chicago pride in the city for sure so I can see how people get defensive.
This is a great topic, and I doubt it's a coincidence that the thread was created by a Rochester NY native, hah. I look forward to reading through all the responses.
Which ironically has steadily grown and has never had population loss at the metro level. It is more about the decline of the 3 major companies in terms of presence. Even if much of the talent has stayed in the area.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
