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Cleveland has a lot of "pros" to it as a city, but also many many "cons."
Pros are the NFL, NBA, MLB teams. The Rock n Roll Hall of Fame Museum. Some good inner city gentrification. Decent industry. Some nice suburbs.
Cons are high crime, not so great economy, declining inner city neighborhoods, pollution, less than ideal winters, declining area population, etc.
All places have both pros and cons, I get that.
But Cleveland's "cons" tend to outweigh its "pros" in many areas. Thus, saying it is "wonderful" is your opinion and is
subjective, of course. But, I would say that people calling Cleveland "wonderful" is an uncommon sentiment shared about the city, overall.
But if someone has not visited, I'd encourage them to at least one time.
Your Cleveland cons:
"crime" - unfortunately, this is a problem with many cities, North and South (btw, have folks noticed how violent trendy Charlotte, NC has become with horrible high-profile crimes?). Cleveland's certainly not demonstrably worse -- esp compared to Chicago.
"pollution" - this is waaay outdated. The smoke generated by the few factories left, mainly steelmaking, have all been steelmaking facilities down (the Cuyahoga) river in the industrial Flats valley, has been highly regulated and reduced per the EPA for several decades. Ditto, Lake Erie, and the Cuyahoga River (yes, eye-roll, the one that caught fire... 55 years ago), so that swimming (Lake/Edgewater Park) and boating/kayaking, jet skiing, etc., has become a thing in/upon the blue waters of Lake Erie and the River.
"declining inner-city neighborhoods" - yes, Cleveland has its share of these including a few urban prairie-type areas. What post-industrial large city doesn't? But these neighborhoods are strongly offset by viable/livable neighborhoods (the bulk of them) along with several high-trendy/more expensive ones, ie: Ohio City, Edgewater, Univ Circle/Little Italy, Shaker Square-Larchmere, Gordon Sq... and others.
"declining population" - I really don't see how this impacts one's summer visiting plans. Plus, it's well documented that Cleveland's sharp population declines have dramatically slowed in the last decade or so and could, per some experts, actually show reversal even by 2030.
"crime" - unfortunately, this is a problem with many cities, North and South (btw, have folks noticed how violent trendy Charlotte, NC has become with horrible high-profile crimes?). Cleveland's certainly not demonstrably worse -- esp compared to Chicago.
"pollution" - this is waaay outdated. The smoke generated by the few factories left, mainly steelmaking, have all been steelmaking facilities down (the Cuyahoga) river in the industrial Flats valley, has been highly regulated and reduced per the EPA for several decades. Ditto, Lake Erie, and the Cuyahoga River (yes, eye-roll, the one that caught fire... 55 years ago), so that swimming (Lake/Edgewater Park) and boating/kayaking, jet skiing, etc., has become a thing in/upon the blue waters of Lake Erie and the River.
"declining inner-city neighborhoods" - yes, Cleveland has its share of these including a few urban prairie-type areas. What post-industrial large city doesn't? But these neighborhoods are strongly offset by viable/livable neighborhoods (the bulk of them) along with several high-trendy/more expensive ones, ie: Ohio City, Edgewater, Univ Circle/Little Italy, Shaker Square-Larchmere, Gordon Sq... and others.
"declining population" - I really don't see how this impacts one's summer visiting plans. Plus, it's well documented that Cleveland's sharp population declines have dramatically slowed in the last decade or so and could, per some experts, actually show reversal even by 2030.
Burning River from Great Lakes Brewery was always enjoyable, however!
Good to hear it's still going strong! I feel like Great Lakes beers are more difficult to find in Buffalo as compared to 5+ years ago. I'll have to do a poker/brewery road trip to CLE over the summer...haven't done that since before the pandemic
Tucson -- but it will be hot in summer with low humidity (teens, likely). Your friends will clue you in to how to keep cool. There is a lot to see, but six weeks is a long time. It will be cooler at higher elevations so you can find time to explore the mountains.
I remember, as a kid, driving with my family from the RnR HOF to our hotel in Shaker Heights while taking 'the scenic route', ie, we avoided the expressway. I'd invite anyone who considers Cleveland a wonderful place to take that same drive. It's not a short drive, and it's basically uninterrupted blight until you cross a bridge and suddenly you're in relatively upscale suburbia.
That's an interesting story, but I'm not sure what route you took or what hotel you're talking about since the last one in Shaker Heights (the Somerset Hotel) closed over 30 years ago. The point being, you can cherry pick any city. The corollary to your presentation is that Cleveland has blight, and other cities, principally Chicago, since that's the main comparator here, doesn't. That is, unless you drive through this:
Yes, Cleveland has blighted areas -- too many, with most being on the East Side. But in your jaunt to Shaker from the Rock Hall, downtown, you could have taken the actual more scenic (and much quicker route), heading down the Shoreway (expressway) along the attractive Lake Erie shoreline, then gotten off and headed down MLK Blvd through Rockefeller Park and its unique and amazing Cultural Gardens, and you would have seen this:
That's an interesting story, but I'm not sure what route you took or what hotel you're talking about since the last one in Shaker Heights (the Somerset Hotel) closed over 30 years ago. The point being, you can cherry pick any city. The corollary to your presentation is that Cleveland has blight, and other cities, principally Chicago, since that's the main comparator here, doesn't. That is, unless you drive through this:
Yes, Cleveland has blighted areas -- too many, with most being on the East Side. But in your jaunt to Shaker from the Rock Hall, downtown, you could have taken the actual more scenic (and much quicker route), heading down the Shoreway (expressway) along the attractive Lake Erie shoreline, then gotten off and headed down MLK Blvd through Rockefeller Park and its unique and amazing Cultural Gardens, and you would have seen this:
All I remember was that there was a Max & Erma's location nearby. Is that Ohio chain still around? We ate at that location, then also a Columbus location years later. Maybe the hotel was the next town over from Shaker, not sure. I only know with certainty that Shaker was mentioned, and we headed in that general direction. Stayed in a Red Roof Inn-esque place. Motel 6, Super 8, Ramada, etc. Feel like Hampton Inn wasn't as prevalent 25 years ago, though it certainly deserves mention along with the rest of those. My family was middle class to the core, hah. I always loved taking in my surroundings, but as a kid I didn't have any prior knowledge of the Cleveland burbs. Used to give the AAA Triptik a good look, but I didn't always retain it all, lol
I'll check out the links tomorrow. I'm at the sportsbook and there's nothing left to bet on, but I'm kinda tired and not as drunk as I should be for 1 AM
Correction: there are 7 Japanese basketball games left to bet on. Not feeling like being a complete degenerate tonight
Regarding blight, I live in Buffalo, which isn't too dissimilar from Cleveland. My impression has always been that there's a slightly better intact urban neighborhood to blighted urban neighborhood ratio in Buffalo than in Cleveland. Is there an agency or mere website that measures this sort of thing? With Chicago, you can throw out the ratios, because even if they may be theoretically similar to Cleveland's or Buffalo's, there's just a much greater landmass of 'nice places' to be. Last time I was in Chicago was 2022, coming home from Vegas. I had a good time in Wrigleyville on a Sunday night, went to O'Hare thinking I could fall asleep there, realized that the fluorescent lighting wasn't going to allow that to happen, then had a cabbie drop me off at a park that featured a Frank Lloyd Wright-style visitor's center of some kind. It was near the intersection of Milwaukee and Nagle, for potential googling purposes. Slept in the park for three hours, then flew home in the AM. Good times
ETA The 'park' in question must've been Caldwell Woods Forest Preserve. It was incredibly tranquil...the cabbie was reluctant to let me out there but the call was correct!
Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 05-04-2024 at 11:38 PM..
Regarding blight, I live in Buffalo, which isn't too dissimilar from Cleveland. My impression has always been that there's a slightly better intact urban neighborhood to blighted urban neighborhood ratio in Buffalo than in Cleveland. Is there an agency or mere website that measures this sort of thing? With Chicago, you can throw out the ratios, because even if they may be theoretically similar to Cleveland's or Buffalo's, there's just a much greater landmass of 'nice places' to be. Last time I was in Chicago was 2022, coming home from Vegas. I had a good time in Wrigleyville on a Sunday night, went to O'Hare thinking I could fall asleep there, realized that the fluorescent lighting wasn't going to allow that to happen, then had a cabbie drop me off at a park that featured a Frank Lloyd Wright-style visitor's center of some kind. It was near the intersection of Milwaukee and Nagle, for potential googling purposes. Slept in the park for three hours, then flew home in the AM. Good times
I think this is a fair summary. I like Cleveland and am rooting for a sustained come back. It has some great old downtown architecture, the University Circle institutions are world class, there are a few revitalizing pockets, some cool older streetcar suburbs and a pretty good setting at the crossroads of the Great Lakes and the edge of the Appalachian plateau. But, you also have to be prepared for Cleveland. If you expect a smaller Chicago or a flatter Pittsburgh by the lake, you will probably come away disappointed.
IMO, (and frankly statistically) Cleveland is a fairly disinvested city. It has continued to lose population into the 2000s and has relatively low income and educational attainment levels. It's pretty disinvested even relative to other rust belt cities (with the exception of Detroit). What is going on in Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway, Edgewater, University Circle/Little Italy is great. But, they are fairly small areas for an legacy city in a 2 million plus MSA.
Chicago certainly has its blight. But, it really is a tale of 2 cities type situation. You have vast pockets of crime, poverty, disinvestment around the south and west sides. But, then you have the broader downtown core and the northside areas which are among the most vibrant urban areas in the nation. Outside NYC, it is unmatched for scale of urban activity.
I would have a touch time recommending Cleveland as a homebase for a month plus stay. But, it is a pretty cool city that merits a weekend trip.
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