Cities that are most like Cleveland (Columbus, Cincinnati: apartment, townhouse, school)

[5Lakes]

I think the answer is easily Buffalo.

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by stlouisan

Let's leave St. Louis out of it then unless you think it's relevant. I don't feel like having to deal with an additional fight breaking out.

Not sure why you singled out my post then. I was being honest and wasn't "bringing St Louis into it".

[Clevelander17]

Let me also throw my vote to Buffalo.

Milwaukee from what I hear is also quite similar, though I've never been there. Detroit is different in ways I can't quite pin down.

As a regular visitor to St. Louis, there are some superficial similarities with Cleveland, though St. Louis to me has a bit of a Southern influence that Cleveland simply does not have. The presence of the river also gives it a different feel, and of course the climate is different, as well. St. Louis and Cincinnati are more similar than St. Louis and Cleveland.

Chicago's really in its own league, which is fine and really not even worth arguing about again.

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by Clevelander17

Milwaukee from what I hear is also quite similar, though I've never been there.

I find Milwaukee to be very similar to Cleveland in terms of size and scale and density and blue-collar atmosphere. The times I've visited Milwaukee I found it to feel very comfortable and familiar because it did remind me of Cleveland quite a bit.

[Natural510]

I always thought Pittsburgh and Cleveland were most similar, but maybe there's more to the Buffalo thing than I realize.

[1watertiger]

i think cleveland has its own feel and kind of stands alone. has a bit of the chicago feel ,dialect, similar beautiful suburbs and on a great lake., a little bit of NY with all the langauges and nationalities and food choices, a little like detroit because of some of the urban blight,high crime and devastation of some nieghborhoods,but also suburbs around metro, a bit like milwaukee,pitt., buffalo and detroit again because because of industry,factories and warehouses.. i guess what im trying to say is that cleveland metro is really its own animal.. we have our own distinct feel and vibe.

[elmwood]

Lived in both Cleveland and Buffalo.

The way I compare the two cities:

Downtown Cleveland > Downtown Buffalo
Buffalo's city neighborhoods >> Cleveland's city neighborhoods
Suburban Cleveland > Suburban Buffalo

A big difference: after WWII, it was Cleveland's nicer neighborhoods on the East Side that experienced socioeconomic transition and decline. In Buffalo, it was the blue collar Polish and German neighborhoods east of Main Street that experienced the brunt of post-WWII change. Buffalo's equivalent to Cleveland's Hough/Glenville/University Circle area stayed largely intact; there's really no Cleveland equivalent to Allentown, Elmwood Village, the Delaware District, etc. (A GF that visited Buffalo with me described Elmwood Village as "like a Coventry that doesn't end".) Delaware Avenue, Buffalo's historic equivalent to Euclid Avenue, remains a very desirable address.

Cleveland spilled over its city line a decade or so earlier than Buffalo. North Buffalo, north of Delaware Park in the city, is very similar to the Cedar-Lee/Euclid Heights area in Cleveland Heights.

Buffalo's Northtowns are much like the East Side suburbs; well-off, diverse, large Jewish population. The Southtowns like the West Side 'burbs; more white ethnic, and middle class but blue collar-leaning. Cheektowaga, to the east, is more Parma than Parma; very Polish, very blue collar, and known for its lawn ornaments. There's a bit of a Northtowns/Southtowns divide, but nothing like the East Side/West Side rivalry. Niagara Falls is kind of like an Italian-American version of East Cleveland or Gary, if you can imagine such a place.

Accents are similar, but there's some differences. Buffalo tends to be more nasaly with a very pronounced flat-A, like a very strong Detroit accent; Cleveland a wee bit more Chicago-ish, and a more pronounced "aw" sound. In Buffalo, most residents have a very strong Inland Northern/NCVS accent, regardless of education or social standing. In Cleveland, I found it was mostly the blue collar crowd that spoke with an Inland Northern inflection. Buffalonians say "pop"; the pop/soda line is about 100 miles to the east. Buffalo is like Detroit when it comes to business names - "Gotta' go to the Walmart's", or in the eastern suburbs, "Gotta' go der to dat Walmart's der". There's a lot of odd slang and usage in Buffalo English that got me strange looks in Cleveland.

Cleveland is more ethnically diverse. Buffalo is dominated by the "big three" - Polish, Italian, and Irish. Cleveland has that, but also far more from southeastern Europe; Serbs, Croatians, Hungarians, etc. Buffalo never experienced an influx from Appalachia. Buffalo has a much smaller black middle class than Cleveland. Cleveland experienced a larger influx of educated blacks from the South in the early stages of the Great Northern Migration, while in Buffalo, it was mainly less educated blacks that arrived during and after WWII for factory jobs.

Buffalonians don't seem to obsess over school districts in the same way Clevelanders do, although Williamsville and Clarence schools have a certain cachet. People don't move because there's a couple more black students in class. City schools are, with a few exceptions, more-or-less integrated, and for parents it's all about the magnet and vocational schools.

Buffalo is known for its architecture, but residents there are more prone to alter their homes with vinyl siding, picture windows, decorative metalwork, and so on than in the Cleveland area. It can sometimes look a bit Staten Island-y.

When it comes to speeding tickets, Kenmore is Buffalo's Linndale, but much worse. Some have been taken to jail for 5+ over the limit. Fines are much higher in NYS than in Ohio, but otherwise, speeding enforcement is more lenient. Except Kenmore.

Gay marriage. Can't do that in Cleveland. On the other hand, you can't buy wine in supermarkets in Buffalo, and forget about fireworks.

I'll say this: Superficially, Buffalo looks and feels a LOT more like Cleveland and Milwaukee than Rochester and Syracuse. Culturally, it's a Midwestern/Great Lakes city, not Northeastern. However, there's enough differences to keep one from saying that Buffalo is "like a little Cleveland', or Cleveland "like a big Buffalo".

[5Lakes]

Originally Posted by elmwood

Lived in both Cleveland and Buffalo.A big difference: after WWII, it was Cleveland's nicer neighborhoods on the East Side that experienced socioeconomic transition and decline. In Buffalo, it was the blue collar Polish and German neighborhoods east of Main Street that experienced the brunt of post-WWII change. Buffalo's equivalent to Cleveland's Hough/Glenville/University Circle area stayed largely intact; there's really no Cleveland equivalent to Allentown, Elmwood Village, the Delaware District, etc. (A GF that visited Buffalo with me described Elmwood Village as "like a Coventry that doesn't end".) Delaware Avenue, Buffalo's historic equivalent to Euclid Avenue, remains a very desirable address.

Yes, I always thought that if Cleveland's east side did not fall into the gutter it would be the spitting image of what Elmwood Village/North Buffalo are today.

However, I think Cleveland's present day equivilant to Allentown would be Ohio City. Cleveland's west side, while historically more working class than the east side, did have some wealth in Ohio City along Clinton and Franklin Avenues. I don't think there are any areas in Buffalo's east or south sides that have old money historic streets.

I would also add that I think Lakewood reminds me of a mix of Kenmore and North Buffalo, but is on the lake.

Originally Posted by elmwood

I'll say this: Superficially, Buffalo looks and feels a LOT more like Cleveland and Milwaukee than Rochester and Syracuse. Culturally, it's a Midwestern/Great Lakes city, not Northeastern. However, there's enough differences to keep one from saying that Buffalo is "like a little Cleveland', or Cleveland "like a big Buffalo".

I think there are things that Cleveland has in common with Buffalo that separate them from Milwaukee. Although all three certainly have much in common.

1. Cleveland and Buffalo have more similarities in terms of ethnicities. Milwaukee has less Italians, more Mexicans, and is more German.

2. Milwaukee is pretty much laid out on a grid. Cleveland and Buffalo have avenues that branch out from the city core like spokes on a wheel.

3. Milwaukee has a great lakefront and riverfront. Cleveland and Buffalo have crappy waterfronts.

4. Milwaukee has more prairie style architecture and lacks the double/duplex housing that is common in Cleveland and Buffalo.

[elmwood]

Originally Posted by 5Lakes

However, I think Cleveland's present day equivilant to Allentown would be Ohio City. Cleveland's west side, while historically more working class than the east side, did have some wealth in Ohio City along Clinton and Franklin Avenues. I don't think there are any areas in Buffalo's east or south sides that have old money historic streets.

I always thought Cleveland's most Allentown-like neighborhood was Tremont. A few differences: Tremont doesn't have the same population density as Allentown, and its commercial uses are more scattered.

Ohio City reminds me of what Buffalo's Broadway-Fillmore/Polonia neighborhood would be like if it had experienced some gentrification, instead of being absorbed into the urban prairie.

No old money on the East Side, but there's Treehaven, a small, middle/upper-middle class enclave on the far northeast side of the cit,y that was traditionally popular with city court judges. Treehaven, along with Kaisertown, Lovejoy, and Babcock, are considered the East Side's last remaining "white" neighborhoods.

South Buffalo: tends to be more "shanty" and working class to the north and west, and "lace curtain" and middle/upper-middle class to the south and east. No old money, but there's a lot of established families that are influential in local politics. It's very similar to the Kamm's Corners/West Park area - very Irish, and the city's "blue ghetto".

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by elmwood

Lived in both Cleveland and Buffalo.

there's really no Cleveland equivalent to Allentown, Elmwood Village, the Delaware District, etc. (A GF that visited Buffalo with me described Elmwood Village as "like a Coventry that doesn't end".) Delaware Avenue, Buffalo's historic equivalent to Euclid Avenue, remains a very desirable address.
".

Actually that's not totally true. In terms of housing type and street activity, Shaker Square/Larchmere is very similar to Elmwood (which I love, and is proof of why Buffalo is underrated)... The core areas of elmwood have a wonderful, quirky strip of shops, bars and restaurants, but for the most part, the houses in the area aren't spectacular, just solid old WWI-era woodframes, which is the bread 'n butter of Larchmere... The closer you get to the Shaker Heights border, you get some larger houses to mini-mansions, and I don't think Elmwood has the equivalent apartment stock, in size and quality, overall, of Shaker Square, ... with the block-long Moreland Courts, one of the more elegant, large-scale apt/condos in the nation.

Edgewater on the West Side is kinda-sorta similar to the old-line, upscale Albright section near Elmwood – in fact, the mansions on Lake Ave and Edgewater Drive (on Lake Erie), are even larger and more extravagant. And while the street restaurant/shop activity of Edgewater is not quite as concentrated as on Elmwood, there’s quite a bit of it spread along Clifton Ave, and more concentrated along Detroit Ave, the latter of which I’ll admit is a tad scruffier than Elmwood, … but still cool.

Also, University Circle is in the midst of a residential and commercial renaissance. UC’s housing age seems contemporary with Albright’s, if not even older. The old mansions along streets like Magnolia and Hazel, adjacent to Case Western Reserve University’s campus, and the museums, are still in great shape, even though many do belong to the University, fraternity or social service agency (though many remain in private hands)… This area is the Magnolia Historic District… Overall, UC has seen an explosion in apartment and townhouse building in the last decade, that’s ongoing. The large new Uptown mixed-use complex at Euclid, Ford and E. 115th street have apartments charging the highest rents in the city – about $1,200 – 1,500 for some 1 and 2 bedroom units. Nearby Little Italy, which is separated by the railroad and rapid transit tracks (where a new station will soon rise), which already has an older but strong retail and apartment district, is seeing similar growth in recent years…