Greater Cleveland's population went up from 1960 - 2012! (Columbus, Marion: sale, new home)

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Do any of the Cleveland forum people go around to other forums and flame there? I'm just curious if this particular brand of patheticness is limited to mostly Californians or if we are guilty of it too.

I think it's mostly from ex-Ohioans who believe they now live in a superior place so much so that they feel the overwhelming urge to come to the Ohio forum and troll or tell everyone how awful Ohio and its cities are. It's kind of a weird pathology. As someone who doesn't currently live in Ohio, I've never felt that way. I like and miss the state, imperfections and all.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by maxmodder

Negative comments about a given area from former residents should be just as welcome in the discussion as positive comments.

There's a way to state negativity a bit more tactfully and productively, though. I'm sure every Clevelander is more than familiar with the population losses overall the last 50-60 years, just as many outside of Cleveland have at least a vague idea of it. It's not a secret.

However, I think the main point of contention is that history does not necessarily determine the future. I actually think that Cleveland is in a better position today than at any other time in the last 50 years. Is everything perfect? Of course not. For my part, I think city leadership is still just way too hung up on the big, flashy projects rather than the systematic revitalization process in neighborhoods that has greater overall impact long-term, and there are clearly still far too many areas of the city that need help. Housing vacancies alone are pretty awful. And there are too few job opportunities in the city, and that has kept unemployment much higher than in the whole metro. Overall, though, I think the city is heading in a positive direction. Not that it's going to turn around overnight, but no problems ever get fixed that way.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

I think it's mostly from ex-Ohioans who believe they now live in a superior place so much so that they feel the overwhelming urge to come to the Ohio forum and troll or tell everyone how awful Ohio and its cities are. It's kind of a weird pathology. As someone who doesn't currently live in Ohio, I've never felt that way. I like and miss the state, imperfections and all.

The ex-Ohio crowd is usually one of two things: (1) extremely bitter and feeling superior because they live somewhere else now or (2) had no problem with their hometown and might even fantasize about moving back some day. Not many in the middle. I've run into these 1's in Boston. I forgot that the east and west coasts are just objectively better in every way imaginable.

And also, another point I wanted to make. The detractors like to say that these boards are filled with boosters who think nothing bad can ever happen in Cleveland. If they paid attention to any threads because those that they read for the 2 weeks they are active members, they'd know that this largely isn't true. I've criticized Cleveland a lot- I'm against the Opporunity Corridor, anti-gentrification in a lot of ways, have qualms about huge parking lots downtown, Public Square should be closed off, I even think the Cultural Gardens should be closed off, W. 25th should be closed off, we need more bike infratstructure, some rapid stations are terrible, Browns stadium is a money pit, I hate the Flats development (Toby Keith's Bar and Grille, a casino, Panini's in addition to the three strip clubs... ugh), we need to annex E. Cleveland, we need less Sam McNulty, etc. I could go on and on. Posters here want to portray this as mindless boosters vs. people who see "the truth." If they paid any attention at all, they wouldn't be acting like this. It's really people who know things vs. people who don't. You can be both critical and praising of a place at the same time. Overall though, I don't see how unnecessary pessimism can move anything forward. If everyone thought like this, the world would be in terrible shape. Most of the negative comments from certain posters aren't very nuanced. They don't talk about anything specific. They aren't giving concrete ideas. They say things like "guyzzz, Cleveland just doesn't 'feel' important anymore."

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

The ex-Ohio crowd is usually one of two things: (1) extremely bitter and feeling superior because they live somewhere else now or (2) had no problem with their hometown and might even fantasize about moving back some day. Not many in the middle. I've run into these 1's in Boston. I forgot that the east and west coasts are just objectively better in every way imaginable.

And also, another point I wanted to make. The detractors like to say that these boards are filled with boosters who think nothing bad can ever happen in Cleveland. If they paid attention to any threads because those that they read for the 2 weeks they are active members, they'd know that this largely isn't true. I've criticized Cleveland a lot- I'm against the Opporunity Corridor, anti-gentrification in a lot of ways, have qualms about huge parking lots downtown, Public Square should be closed off, I even think the Cultural Gardens should be closed off, W. 25th should be closed off, we need more bike infratstructure, some rapid stations are terrible, Browns stadium is a money pit, I hate the Flats development (Toby Keith's Bar and Grille, a casino, Panini's in addition to the three strip clubs... ugh), we need to annex E. Cleveland, we need less Sam McNulty, etc. I could go on and on. Posters here want to portray this as mindless boosters vs. people who see "the truth." If they paid any attention at all, they wouldn't be acting like this. It's really people who know things vs. people who don't. You can be both critical and praising of a place at the same time. Overall though, I don't see how unnecessary pessimism can move anything forward. If everyone thought like this, the world would be in terrible shape. Most of the negative comments from certain posters aren't very nuanced. They don't talk about anything specific. They aren't giving concrete ideas. They say things like "guyzzz, Cleveland just doesn't 'feel' important anymore."

Sentiments which do resonate with me, even though I fall into group "2" of your two groups. But then to "support" these sentiments, they make up stuff that isn't true or they make a huge deal out of irrelevant or unimpressive data. I don't get it. It doesn't add any meaning. All I hear is what was originally said, i.e., "I came home to Cleveland and it didn't excite me."

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

Sentiments which do resonate with me, even though I fall into group "2" of your two groups. But then to "support" these sentiments, they make up stuff that isn't true or they make a huge deal out of irrelevant or unimpressive data. I don't get it. It doesn't add any meaning. All I hear is what was originally said, i.e., "I came home to Cleveland and it didn't excite me."

People think I'm too harsh or too much of a homer when it comes to that guy MSPsite, but he's basically Columbus' version of the same type of person. An "ex" who can't pat themselves on the back hard enough for moving away, and yet it's so clear they're not entirely happy or they wouldn't spend so much time being so negative about where they came from. Happy people don't do that, which leads me to believe that perhaps the reality in these new homes is not quite matching expectations.

[tribecavsbrowns]

Yeah, I feel bad for people like that and usually don't bother them, but if they're being aggressively misleading and untruthful, I like to aggressively expose that. We're on the internet, it takes two seconds to look something up. I don't know why people act as if that weren't the case.

[Cali1976]

My pathology centers around observing the time and effort you're putting into analyzing my motivations.

My original post was a simple observation based on my recent visit. I was lamenting the loss of the Cleveland of my childhood, and how much it's deteriorated. That's my opinion. No amount of "but apartment complex here, but restaurant there, but job growth over there" is going to change my opinion.

All of my posts are stating my opinion, just like everyone else. Singling me out as having some ulterior motive is unfair. All I'm doing is providing an opinion based on my observations.

FYI - I'm very happy in California, just like many of you all are happy in your places of residence that are not Cleveland.

[Cali1976]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Negative and positive comments from people who don't have any knowledge of what they're talking about have no value.

You're just as credible as I am, based on your location. I haven't looked up your past posting history, however, to validate my assumption...because I don't care that much

[Cleverfield]

Originally Posted by Cali1976

My pathology centers around observing the time and effort you're putting into analyzing my motivations.

My original post was a simple observation based on my recent visit. I was lamenting the loss of the Cleveland of my childhood, and how much it's deteriorated. That's my opinion. No amount of "but apartment complex here, but restaurant there, but job growth over there" is going to change my opinion.

All of my posts are stating my opinion, just like everyone else. Singling me out as having some ulterior motive is unfair. All I'm doing is providing an opinion based on my observations.

FYI - I'm very happy in California, just like many of you all are happy in your places of residence that are not Cleveland.

Not every argument is the same, some are stronger than others because they are based on better facts, or stronger reasoning. We were simply pointing out the fact that your "opinions" should really be taken lightly, because they are not really based on facts or analysis but rather your personal feelings, which may or may not have their source in something actually happening in the city, and so are not credible. Your saying that no amount of facts will change your opinion speaks to that.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by Cali1976

You're just as credible as I am, based on your location. I haven't looked up your past posting history, however, to validate my assumption...because I don't care that much

Nope, you haven't lived in Cleveland in forever. I lived there most of my life. I lived their as an adult, with a job. I go back several times a year. I only moved away in November 2012. My opinion is definitely more valid than yours.

You were.... a kid who left what? 20 years ago? Please.