Census estimates: Cuyahoga still shrinking, surrounding counties growing (Columbus, Cleveland: middle-class, buying)

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

The city's population is still in decline, though. The "improvements" to the city are 100% gentrification-driven. I suppose if one sees the displacement of "the poors" out to the suburbs while the rich move back in from the suburbs to be a good thing, then that's the case for us. I just view it as "shuffling" the same amount of people around.

Cities need influxes of high-income people in order to bring in enough revenue to run things without raising taxes to an unacceptable level. You can't support the poor without the rich. That's why I'm pro-gentrification even though it means I can no longer afford a place to live in the neighborhood I grew up in.

[HueysBack]

Originally Posted by andrew61

Cities need influxes of high-income people in order to bring in enough revenue to run things without raising taxes to an unacceptable level. You can't support the poor without the rich. That's why I'm pro-gentrification even though it means I can no longer afford a place to live in the neighborhood I grew up in.

Brother, that is not true. Well it's true in the sense that is what you're seeing across the nation. But you don't need gentrification to sustain a city and certainly the extreme bifurcation we're seeing isn't sustainable or "good". Gentrification is a reflection of volatility - rapid/deep decay followed by rapid/profound growth.

I just got back from SF. It's horrible what's happening there.

Now... what's more likely to happen in Cleveland? The city get's it's together and creates an amazing cross-sector plan to gradually uplift and rebuild deeply impoverished neighborhoods through intelligent development planning and increasing access to economic and educational opportunities, keeping folks in place? Or the city plays whack-a-mole with corporations and neighborhoods slowly die off and then get gentrified? Not sure that's really gentrification anyways.

[QCongress83216]

Originally Posted by HueysBack

Brother, that is not true. Well it's true in the sense that is what you're seeing across the nation. But you don't need gentrification to sustain a city and certainly the extreme bifurcation we're seeing isn't sustainable or "good". Gentrification is a reflection of volatility - rapid/deep decay followed by rapid/profound growth.

I just got back from SF. It's horrible what's happening there.

Now... what's more likely to happen in Cleveland? The city get's it's together and creates an amazing cross-sector plan to gradually uplift and rebuild deeply impoverished neighborhoods through intelligent development planning and increasing access to economic and educational opportunities, keeping folks in place? Or the city plays whack-a-mole with corporations and neighborhoods slowly die off and then get gentrified? Not sure that's really gentrification anyways.

Just curious, what's happening in SF? How is it different from when you grew up there?

[216facts]

Originally Posted by HueysBack

Part of it is certainly self-branding and the national media buying into the hype. But it's not all fluff and hype, there is some real substance behind it.

Pittsburgh's urban bones are arguably better and trends (nationally) are moving towards urbanity vs the suburban shift of the past. Sure, Pittsburgh's pop loss has been similar (worse actually) than Cleveland's. But their GDP has continuously grown at a healthy rate, whereas Cleveland's tumbled heavily during the recession and it's return to growth has been a fair bit slower.

And to round out those points, their shift to a "modern economy" happened much earlier and was much more substantive. Not sure Cleveland has really "shifted", honestly. Carnegie Mellon in conjunction with the city, county and state, pushed heavily in a concerted effort towards ed-tech and it's paid off handsomely.

Carnegie Mellon University Creates $2.7 Billion in Economic Impact Each Year
Why Google, Uber, and Facebook Are Flocking to This Quiet Rust Belt City

Crime stats are worse for Cleveland. Poverty and per capita income stats are worse. Education stats are worse.

I still think Cleveland has immense potential. The layout of the metro area is great. It's more diverse than PIT. It's flanked by a really great park system. And... of course... we have the lake.

Yeah, I always loved their hills though, particularly downtown. I wish Cleveland made better use of the views on the east side of the Valley at the I-480 bridge.

As for population loss, +/- 5k isn't going to upset me, not one iota. If you're holding your breath for a sustained increase in population, don't do that. We have a lot of good options in front of us, the chance to clean up our environment, collect and conserve land, build a more sustainable community. I like a lot of the progress we've been making, particularly in conservation of land in NEO. That's really difficult and expensive if people are moving in OR if the perception is that the CSA is growing or about to grow.

[btownboss4]

Originally Posted by 216facts

Yeah, I always loved their hills though, particularly downtown. I wish Cleveland made better use of the views on the east side of the Valley at the I-480 bridge.

As for population loss, +/- 5k isn't going to upset me, not one iota. If you're holding your breath for a sustained increase in population, don't do that. We have a lot of good options in front of us, the chance to clean up our environment, collect and conserve land, build a more sustainable community. I like a lot of the progress we've been making, particularly in conservation of land in NEO. That's really difficult and expensive if people are moving in OR if the perception is that the CSA is growing or about to grow.

Only literally none of that is happening because most of the loss is moving to the suburban counties which are all barely growing (eg Cleveland is sprawling)

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by btownboss4

Only literally none of that is happening because most of the loss is moving to the suburban counties which are all barely growing (eg Cleveland is sprawling)

But they are barely growing. So it's barely sprawling. Which was the point. Duh.

[216facts]

Originally Posted by btownboss4

Only literally none of that is happening because most of the loss is moving to the suburban counties which are all barely growing (eg Cleveland is sprawling)

Disagree. Cleveland is sprawling like pretty much every other community in the USA, but to a much lesser extent. Much of what I stated is happening. Golf courses are closing and being purchased or given to the metropolitan park districts. I know of 4. Check out the western reserve land conservancy for the amount of land development rights that have been turned over. https://www.wrlandconservancy.org. Cleveland metroparks had one of its largest land gains last year.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by 216facts

Disagree. Cleveland is sprawling like pretty much every other community in the USA, but to a much lesser extent. Much of what I stated is happening. Golf courses are closing and being purchased or given to the metropolitan park districts. I know of 4. Check out the western reserve land conservancy for the amount of land development rights that have been turned over. https://www.wrlandconservancy.org. Cleveland metroparks had one of its largest land gains last year.

Metroparks have been doing great work in conservation. Anyone with basic internet search skills could have found that out.

[216facts]

One other point. Imagine the difference in land conservation efforts between Dallas and Cleveland. Dallas metro is adding about 125k people per year, and that's been going on for most of the last 5 decades (not all at the rate of 125k/year though.) Imagine the housing product that has to come on the market to allow for that, particularly when you realize that Dallas housing costs are very reasonable. The fact is you have to have a housing machine that is gobbling land and producing the "American dream" in large quantity.

Parks in Dallas are only in places where the developers do not want to go, which means for the most part, they are NOT where the people are living.

[btownboss4]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

But they are barely growing. So it's barely sprawling. Which was the point. Duh.

The growth that is happening is very land inefficient. The Suburban counties gained about 4,000 residents while the center lost 4500. And I’d bet the built up areas of Cuyahoga County lost more than the less urban parts as is the pattern across the Midwest.