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Hartford could never sell 12,000 season tickets. Starting with Nashville, that became the prereq. It should have been that way decades ago! Sell 12,000 non refundable season tickets in a few months. Fail to and you lose the bid fee to get a team also. The many you refer to would be denied a NHL team if they were trying to get one..now.
We need to do realistic things, and a massive upgrade to an arena that lost its only pro team, and the state's would be reckless. Boston & NYC are more than enough for this state's hockey fans.
I never mentioned anything about bringing back a hockey team in any of my posts. I did reference the NCAA men's basketball playoffs though. Love the "Can't Do" attitude that permeates this forum at times when it comes to the idea of a better arena in order to attract more top level attractions.
BTW. The Whalers came very close to selling 12,000 season tickets at the end of their stay in Hartford and I clearly recall that Karmanos would not give them a little extra time to achieve that goal. He had no intention of keeping the team in Hartford from the moment he bought the team and it was evident to anyone that watched how he conducted business with the city and state and also the team.
That issue aside, when the Civic Center opened I remember the Celtics playing a number of games each season and I went to a few in addition to Whalers games. Also remember the AETNA World Cup Tennis match as well. Probably some other events back in the day I have since forgot since I was in High school at the time and had a limited interest in certain attractions that would be playing there including concerts. Barnum and Bailey Circus also played there if I recall.
Simply put, if you think small, you will be small. In the world of business that can sometimes backfire and cause a business to go under. In this case an automotive analogy is appropriate. Putting retreads on the XL Center is leading to a slow continued decline of the facility. Buying a quality new tire (new arena if they can come up with the funding) or at least buying a high quality used tire (additional upgrades such as seating at an additional cost to taxpayers or possible investors) would allow the arena to compete effectively for better events that would bring in more money for the city and state and certainly the shops and bars etc. around downtown.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Hartford there are 2,141,000 people residing. Within a 50 mile radius of downtown there are 3,956,000 people. More than enough people to draw visitors to the arena if it is marketed properly and the right shows and entertainment are brought in.
For comparisons sake:
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Cincinnati there are 1,971,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Pittsburgh there are 2,055,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Kansas City there are 2,014,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Indianapolis there are 1,911,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Milwaukee there are 1,711,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Nashville there are 1,579,000 people residing.
Clearly the population base within a 30 to 50 mile radius of the city exists to tap into for spending at events at a new and improved arena. Bringing in the right events and proper marketing are the key.
The 12k is not an owner rule. It is league policy, and it took the business community in Nashville metro to get the 12k.
Bear in mind, no city listed in the post above is wedged between 3 NHL teams, as Hartford is, in such close proximity. Hartford was always sharing a population base, and its competition, unlike the Whalers, had dedicated cable networks airing them.
It would be absurd to spend a billion to build a new arena in Hartford. Retrofitting the seat count means the roof comes off, the seating scheme is 100% reconfigured, etc. Its not much different than gutting the existing facility in cost. Thats why it was wisely not even presented.
That being said, I think we could still get a women's Sweet 16 event, now and then, basketball.
Hartford will still get some events spending this $107 mill for decades to come, just as the Nashville Municipal Auditorium got smaller events after the downtown arena was built.
The Civic Center already has nice roster of activity for a mid major region venue.
The Wolfpack hockey team (Rangers minor affiliate), Husky men and women, WWE Raw and Lizzo upcoming, Monster trucks and so on.
What else do you want?
It has hosted early round Madness games in the past and may do so again. Cities don’t get those every year. If Albany can host some, so can Hartford.
There have been been Sweet Sixteen/Elite Eight women's NCAA tournament games at XL in the past. Only problem.....if they came back, I'm not convinced they wouldn't just go to Mohegan Sun Arena despite the smaller capacity. It was the building of that area in the early 2000's that hurt the XL Center probably as much as the Whalers departure. So many concerts that might have once gone to Hartford go there now. And some sporting events too.
That being said, the it's still very active. Others already listed all the events. Particularly between October and April, there are typically multiple events per week. It does get somewhat dormant in the summer. But it's not even comparable to Rentschler Field, for example, which is dormant most of the time. Building a new arena is a worthy investment for the state. Unfortunately, the money and increasingly our Governors all come from Fairfield County where the center of gravity tilts to NYC, not to Hartford. We have more than enough money in this state to do it. Many states with less money build entirely new arenas and even stadiums, but we can't even get renovations beyond a new concourse floor design and updated electrical wiring. It's really sad.
The Civic Center already has nice roster of activity for a mid major region venue.
The Wolfpack hockey team (Rangers minor affiliate), Husky men and women, WWE Raw and Lizzo upcoming, Monster trucks and so on.
What else do you want?
It has hosted early round Madness games in the past and may do so again. Cities don’t get those every year. If Albany can host some, so can Hartford.
For the market size, the Civic Center does an adequate amount of business.
I never mentioned anything about bringing back a hockey team in any of my posts. I did reference the NCAA men's basketball playoffs though. Love the "Can't Do" attitude that permeates this forum at times when it comes to the idea of a better arena in order to attract more top level attractions.
BTW. The Whalers came very close to selling 12,000 season tickets at the end of their stay in Hartford and I clearly recall that Karmanos would not give them a little extra time to achieve that goal. He had no intention of keeping the team in Hartford from the moment he bought the team and it was evident to anyone that watched how he conducted business with the city and state and also the team.
That issue aside, when the Civic Center opened I remember the Celtics playing a number of games each season and I went to a few in addition to Whalers games. Also remember the AETNA World Cup Tennis match as well. Probably some other events back in the day I have since forgot since I was in High school at the time and had a limited interest in certain attractions that would be playing there including concerts. Barnum and Bailey Circus also played there if I recall.
Simply put, if you think small, you will be small. In the world of business that can sometimes backfire and cause a business to go under. In this case an automotive analogy is appropriate. Putting retreads on the XL Center is leading to a slow continued decline of the facility. Buying a quality new tire (new arena if they can come up with the funding) or at least buying a high quality used tire (additional upgrades such as seating at an additional cost to taxpayers or possible investors) would allow the arena to compete effectively for better events that would bring in more money for the city and state and certainly the shops and bars etc. around downtown.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Hartford there are 2,141,000 people residing. Within a 50 mile radius of downtown there are 3,956,000 people. More than enough people to draw visitors to the arena if it is marketed properly and the right shows and entertainment are brought in.
For comparisons sake:
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Cincinnati there are 1,971,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Pittsburgh there are 2,055,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Kansas City there are 2,014,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Indianapolis there are 1,911,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Milwaukee there are 1,711,000 people residing.
Within a 30 mile radius of downtown Nashville there are 1,579,000 people residing.
Clearly the population base within a 30 to 50 mile radius of the city exists to tap into for spending at events at a new and improved arena. Bringing in the right events and proper marketing are the key.
I'd love to see regular season Celtics games again but it's not likely. Back then the Civic Center had a higher seating capacity than the old Boston Garden so that may have been incentive for the Celtics to play a couple times here. But they opened TD Garden in the late. 90's which seats more than XL.
I do largely agree with you though. The doom and gloomers will say yes but we are in such close proximity to New York and Boston that they intrude on our market so the numbers are misleading. But some of those markets you mentioned also have equal or bigger markets close by.
Hartford and NYC are 116 miles apart. Hartford and Boston are 101 miles apart.
Hartford and NYC are 116 miles apart. Hartford and Boston are 101 miles apart.
Milwaukee and Chicago are 92 miles apart.
Pittsburgh and Cleveland are 114 miles apart.
Indianapolis and Cincinnati are 116 miles apart.
In only the first case, did a smaller city try to compete with 2 nearby larger cities in the NHL, so I am not sure the point of this portion of your post.
Cleveland has no NHL team, so perhaps their hockey fans are Pittsburgh fans.
Milwaukee has no NHL team. Chicago fans there?
Neither of the last two have an NHL team.
There are tons of folks who would be proposing new Hartford arenas if we had a solid business case, solid ROI to do so. There are none. Think back to the failed Ct attempt to lure the Pats. We wisely did not attempt to get a new team. We tried to poach one. If we had any business case to get an NHL team, it would have to be a poach situation. We would have to maintain from day 1 a huge edge in season sales vs where they are, a huge edge in local tv revenue which would be impossible (MSN can only pay big $ by pairing the Knicks & Rangers. If fans would support either individually, it would be the NBA, not the NHL. The NHL sport is not easy to capture well on tv. We all recall the fox extended line to cover a randomly moving object)
We would also, no doubt, have to pay the huge costs to relocate all associated facilities. Its big $; $107 million is a tiny fraction of that. To give you some context, the NFL Tennessean Titans stadium rose a few years after I got to the state in 1997. In the next few years they will get a brand new stadium at many times our $107 million Civic Centre investment.
That is why we should be applauding the $107 million renovation, instead of dreaming of hitting powerball here. I am a sports fan stunned by the costs incurred by government now to add stadiums. I also think they must cherry pick if they do so. Nashville was blossoming as a city growing very rapidly so it made sense. Hartford is a mature city, and unlike Nashville it sits between two major NHL cities with THREE teams, so it makes no sense to go big on Civic Centre spending.
BTW, my hunch is, within a decade, NYC loses an NHL team, the Islanders to a city out of this region. That still would not provide enough new fans to support an NHL team in Hartford in the 21st century IMO.
Last edited by BobNJ1960; 03-29-2023 at 09:17 PM..
Every new arena or gutted arena project many want start with a locked in deal with a pro team.
That kind of commitment cannot occur in Hartford, due to the fan base already taken by Boston & NY teams, in a very small geographic area. This hockey saturation we enjoy here is unique in America, btw.
Every new arena or gutted arena project many want start with a locked in deal with a pro team.
That kind of commitment cannot occur in Hartford, due to the fan base already taken by Boston & NY teams, in a very small geographic area. This hockey saturation we enjoy here is unique in America, btw.
Yeah NHL wise, I am not sure how well Hartford would do. The Hartford MSA is like 60% Bruins fans and 30% Rangers.
As soon as you hit towns like Granby, Enfield and Somers, you are hitting 80% Boston fans. Forget about the Mass border, where it becomes exclusively B's fans. If you go South of Hartford and approach towns like Waterbury, New Haven and Hamden, you start getting more Rangers fans and lots of transplanted New Yorkers who are die hard Rangers fans. South and East of that, you become 60+% Rangers fans. The NW corner of CT is also heavily Rangers based up towards the tristate border.
So my biggest question for Hartford is you really only have the area just below the CT border to the Waterbury and New Haven Line. From there, you really dwindle the population within 30 miles who would support a Hartford Team (Taking out the Die Hard Rangers and Bruins fans, NY Transplants, etc). However, I do think if done right and put in the same division as the Bruins or Rangers fan turnout would be a lot higher.
That is just my two cents. I think the geographic disposition of Hartford would prevent the area from gaining so many fans. It definitely would not swing into the Springfield MSA as thats strong Bruins country, which would be intricate to capture for a larger fanbase. New Haven as well (Albeit, New Haven would definitely give a lot more fans than Springfield area).
Last edited by masssachoicetts; 03-30-2023 at 07:14 AM..
There are tons of folks who would be proposing new Hartford arenas if we had a solid business case, solid ROI to do so. There are none. Think back to the failed Ct attempt to lure the Pats. We wisely did not attempt to get a new team. We tried to poach one. If we had any business case to get an NHL team, it would have to be a poach situation. We would have to maintain from day 1 a huge edge in season sales vs where they are, a huge edge in local tv revenue which would be impossible (MSN can only pay big $ by pairing the Knicks & Rangers. If fans would support either individually, it would be the NBA, not the NHL. The NHL sport is not easy to capture well on tv. We all recall the fox extended line to cover a randomly moving object)
We would also, no doubt, have to pay the huge costs to relocate all associated facilities. Its big $; $107 million is a tiny fraction of that. To give you some context, the NFL Tennessean Titans stadium rose a few years after I got to the state in 1997. In the next few years they will get a brand new stadium at many times our $107 million Civic Centre investment.
That is why we should be applauding the $107 million renovation, instead of dreaming of hitting powerball here. I am a sports fan stunned by the costs incurred by government now to add stadiums. I also think they must cherry pick if they do so. Nashville was blossoming as a city growing very rapidly so it made sense. Hartford is a mature city, and unlike Nashville it sits between two major NHL cities with THREE teams, so it makes no sense to go big on Civic Centre spending.
BTW, my hunch is, within a decade, NYC loses an NHL team, the Islanders to a city out of this region. That still would not provide enough new fans to support an NHL team in Hartford in the 21st century IMO.
Of course it will never happen but poaching is the only way a team could come to Hartford. It almost worked with the Patriots. They would have been successful there.
The Red Sox and Celtics would do well with season tix in Hartford. They'd sell out every game. Not sure about the Bruins.
From NY, the Yankees, Mets, Knicks and Rangers would all sell out in Hartford. The Devils, Islanders and Nets would not.
The Giants would sell out a new New Haven stadium 8 games/yr no problem.
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