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She was getting her tonsils removed. You can't get anymore routine then that. Of course the hospital is going to say otherwise. What do you expect them to say? Yep, it's a routine procedure that we do a a dozen times a day. We just messed this one up, and now the girl is brain dead.
There is nothing like the righteous drone of the totally ignorant.
The news coverage says that the family will need permission of the coroner to transport their daughter. It is obvious that they will need the coroner involved as they will be transporting a dead body rather a live child.
Again, I am not making light of the suffering of the family, but enough time has passed for them to accept the determinations of three different experts that their daughter has died.
You would think that a religious family would understand that what is in the bed is just an empty shell and their actual daughter is already in heaven (if that is what she believed).
germaine,
I remember seeing that too. I don't know if the coroner will approve a transfer cross-country.
I'm not convinced those who are talking about malpractice understand sometimes protocols can be run perfectly, but given the patient's status pre-op, her body may have had co-morbid diseases that wouldn't allow treatment to work. Also, for those who are talking numbers for malpractice, malpractice has not been established. The family's attorney would have to prove the teens level of perfect health, address the fact the parents had to sign an Informed Consent which specifically lists risks and they had no further questions so they gave their written signatures for the surgery.
I have no idea if malpractice occurred or not. I only know manipulation of the media has occurred with one liners and not making her medical records available.
I honestly do not know if the coroner will agree to allow her body to be moved cross country. And I fear for all of us if a Judge cab Court Order a Coroner to do, or not do X, Y, Z.
I've tried not to categorize these parents. I have thoughts when I've seen them on tv. I know I posted this once before and someone else did too. Where is their pastor or religious leader to provide spiritual guidance? Or has the family refused spiritual counseling too? Could a judge Court Order a Pastor to meet with them and if they refused, what would happen?
I agree, Christians don't like to bury their children more than anyone else. However, almost all Christian families take comfort that their child is in Heaven and her soul/spirit continues to live on in Heaven.
I did see the comment about if she believed in Heaven. I don't know how we'll ever know so I'm just defaulting for general Christian beliefs.
The news coverage says that the family will need permission of the coroner to transport their daughter. It is obvious that they will need the coroner involved as they will be transporting a dead body rather a live child.
Again, I am not making light of the suffering of the family, but enough time has passed for them to accept the determinations of three different experts that their daughter has died.
You would think that a religious family would understand that what is in the bed is just an empty shell and their actual daughter is already in heaven (if that is what she believed).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mtn. States Resident
germaine,
I remember seeing that too. I don't know if the coroner will approve a transfer cross-country.
I'm not convinced those who are talking about malpractice understand sometimes protocols can be run perfectly, but given the patient's status pre-op, her body may have had co-morbid diseases that wouldn't allow treatment to work. Also, for those who are talking numbers for malpractice, malpractice has not been established. The family's attorney would have to prove the teens level of perfect health, address the fact the parents had to sign an Informed Consent which specifically lists risks and they had no further questions so they gave their written signatures for the surgery.
I have no idea if malpractice occurred or not. I only know manipulation of the media has occurred with one liners and not making her medical records available.
I honestly do not know if the coroner will agree to allow her body to be moved cross country. And I fear for all of us if a Judge cab Court Order a Coroner to do, or not do X, Y, Z.
I've tried not to categorize these parents. I have thoughts when I've seen them on tv. I know I posted this once before and someone else did too. Where is their pastor or religious leader to provide spiritual guidance? Or has the family refused spiritual counseling too? Could a judge Court Order a Pastor to meet with them and if they refused, what would happen?
I agree, Christians don't like to bury their children more than anyone else. However, almost all Christian families take comfort that their child is in Heaven and her soul/spirit continues to live on in Heaven.
I did see the comment about if she believed in Heaven. I don't know how we'll ever know so I'm just defaulting for general Christian beliefs.
MSR
The reason that I specifically questioned if the daughter believed in heaven is that I am still "trying to wrap my head around" her family not accepting that their child is brain dead. It has been several weeks, three different experts have determined that she is brain dead and the family is still fighting it.
Obviously, it is extremely painful to have a death in the family, especially a child, however, most Christians WOULD take great comfort that their child is in heaven and living forever in the arms of God. It had occurred to me that perhaps Jahi had questioned her faith, while she was alive, and that is why her family is having such difficulty accepting that she has died. Perhaps, they are uncertain that she will live forever in heaven. But that is just speculation on my part.
We are not trying to "blame the victim" but these are very valid points.
Obesity is a main contributor to sleep apnea. If Jahi did not have sleep apnea she would not have needed the multiple surgeries. Obesity also frequently causes complications in surgery and recovery. And, it is extremely likely, at least quite possible, that she did have high blood pressure and diabetes both cause complications with surgeries and recovery from surgeries. However, the family is not releasing her medical records so we have no way of knowing those things. We only know the limited information that the family is sharing.
But that post you're referring to does blame the victim, or in this case her parents. And I find that tacky. As you stated, we dont know what her medical condition was other than the apnea. We are specuating here based on the fact that she is overweight. And the reason for why she had sleep apnea doesn't matter. The fact is tat her dying is the last thing any parent would assume happen after surgery.
The more I look at that little girls face the more it saddens me. Jahi did not make it to 2014 and this family regardless will have to accept that. It's very sobering.
It will be very interesting to see if the court orders the hospital to insert the feeding tube and tracheostomy. I would expect that even if ordered to do so they would refuse. I'm more concerned with the way the courts seem to be overriding medical professionals. Last time I checked judges went to law school not medical school.
Couldn't rep you Spazkat. Another excellent post.
I don't know where this one or possibly different judges are getting the wisdom to practice medicine in court.
I hope the surgery department has contacted every surgeon who could be asked to do this procedure. My hope is they all refuse. I don't know if a judge could appoint another outside surgeon to do this work or not. I'm positive the C.M.A. and defense attorneys are discussing these issues.
If the court has to appoint a surgeon, this becomes material for all the Cable News legal panels and potentially a new class in law school, if judges are going to be practicing medicine from the bench without the training.
Then again, CA ' s Medical Board should investigate any judge who is not trained to order certain treatment, if that judge is practicing medicine without a license
I don't think it's financial...I honestly think it's because they can't come to grip with the fact that their child is in the state that she is in. Like many of us, we really don't think we would be in that "1%" that could die from a surgery. It does happen, yes, but we really just don't like to think that it would be us or our loved one. Honestly, I just don't know how I'd react if someone said to me, "Riaelise, I'm afraid your daughter...had some complications from the surgery.....I'm afraid....she's brain dead"
They can dispense all the explanations in the world...it would be very hard for me to get past three simple words "She's brain dead". We as parents always hope for even a shred of hope. A glimmer of hope. It may indeed be delusion. Truth be told, while I equate brain death to true death, for people who are distraught "brain death" might offer just this little slice of hope vs. simply saying that she's dead. As in heart stopped, body cold.
At the same time, my heart does feel for this child. She is basically gone to them. She will never kiss her mother again, or touch her, or even blink to her. She isn't even in a comatose state. She is just simply there. Yet, as a mother, sometimes you hold onto whatever you've got because you know that once your child is in the ground, she is physically gone. That's the part that I just couldn't get over.
That's not how it works. Someone doesn't just suddenly announce a person is brain dead. The first brain death declaration was THREE days after the surgery. The family would have been made aware of treatments, consults from pediatric neurologists and/or other sub-specialists, let alone diagnostic and imaging studies.
Brain death is real death. Sometimes for other reasons, a hospital will allow vent to continue if family is enroute. Not in this case, but other's who are declared brain dead who wanted to be organ donors, very specific death notes are written carefully documenting the time of brain death. For an organ donor, technically the patient's account and care ends at that time. A new account number is issued for the donor so costs are billed differently and physician orders can be given from an outside team etc.
I'm surprised the family hasn't accused the hospital of wanting to keep her organs perfumed so she could be a donor.
But one more time, other conditions she may have had prior to surgery, may have ruled her out as a potential donor. It's back to the medical records the family won't allow to be released.
All parents can have clips of a child's hair, hand prints and more. Many parents have children abducted who never get that much or the opportunity to bury their child vs. wonder the rest of there lives.
Cherish each day you get with loved ones, as one truly doesn't know which will be their last time to tell the other person they are loved and appreciated.
I'm thinking death should be a preexisting condition that excludes coverage. Can you imagine how much extra all of the young healthy people will have to pay to cover this?
What a frightening thought! But it will be cheaper for many to pay the penalty. Besides, the dates might change again.
I think the real problem is that the hospital didn't even give them a couple of weeks. They didn't even give them a couple of days. The hospital started pressuring them to remove life support immediately. A couple of days after that, the hospital's lawyers were in court, trying to get a court order to do it. That is going to make any family, feel like the hospital is trying to force them to agree to something they don't want to do.
The hospital should have explained the girls condition to her mother. They should have also explained that she can not remain on life-support indefinitely. Then asked the mother for a timetable, as to when the family might feel comfortable making that decision. Then they should have given the family the time they needed. The situation could have probably been resolved a lot faster that way, then going through the courts. But I guess the hospital has a legal department, and they would rather use that.
KaaBoom,
You've clearly reviewed information I've not seen. Please share a link or two of your sources for what the hospital did, per you. The major networks haven't emphasized that at all.
I do not believe it is common practice to remove life support almost immediately and that is not what reports said. This is what reports said.
McMath is on life support as her family tries to come to terms with what has happened.
They say the situation is made even worse by the hospital staff trying to rush them to remove McMath from life support and regain use of her hospital bed.
'They just have a social worker follow me around all day long asking me "Do you have any other family that needs to see her?" like trying to put a rush on it,' Winkfield told ABC 7, breaking down.
This is your source? What the Daily Mail wrote from reports from news sources in the U. S.? Did you read the father's last words? If not, please do.
Grandma "the nurse" has identified her specialty area or if she is presently working as a nurse. Is she a BSN, RN, LPN? I respect nurses at every level, but if there is a disconnect, it appears to me the grandmother would have helped the family understand. I wonder if she understands brain death? Why else would the dad essentially say "She has a pulse and as long as she has a pulse they want (vent) support to continue."
It is my understanding that when a person is determined to be brain dead it is common practice to remove life support almost immediately. Sometimes, a hospital may delay a few hours or, in extreme situations, maybe a day if there are family members on route to the hospital, but certainly not a "few days".
According to the reports, the hospital did explain the condition and did explain that the child could not stay on life support indefinitely. The mother just refused, and is continuing to refuse, to believe the doctors that said that her daughter had died.
germaine, another thorough post. Do you have a link to what you posted above that you would please share? This is the first time I've heard some of what You wrote.
Thanks in advance
MSR
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I Remember Dr That Too.....
And I fear for all of us if a Judge cab Court Order a Coroner to do, or not do X, Y, Z.
