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I can't accept that the marriage should come before the kids. EDIT: (As a priority I mean...not chronologically.)
Probably because I can't accept that it is OK to be selfish as an adult with the task of raising kids, they are dependent on me, there is no way out, they are an obligation. I had them. I must raise them, and try to raise them right. If they become terrible people or miserable people, it will be my fault.
My mate on the other hand, is a grown adult. I expect him to have the same high standards as myself, the willingness to set aside oneself for the greater good. I subjugate my own needs rather often and expect him to do the same. When he is not willing to do so, I lose respect for him. I feel he's being childish. I am not his mother. As I said...this is a big issue. He needs more than I am interesting in giving him, and whatever needs I've got, I can fulfill far better than he can. He provides little to me, but demands much.
Can't for the life of me understand how I, as an "American woman," am at fault for not appreciating this dynamic. But somehow it seems unfair, and it feels to me that the unfairness is a big part of why marriages aren't working for so many people.
Agree 100%
The men (and it's always men, never women) who complain about the woman putting the kids first annoy me to no end. It's like a three year old throwing a tantrum because he had a newborn sibling so his mommy can't give him quite as much attention anymore. With the exception that they have the excuse of being three, unlike a grown-a$$ man who made a conscious decision to become a father with all the sacrifices and responsibilities it entails. For that matter, I notice that the men who are truly involved and helpful fathers generally aren't the ones complaining, because they know how much work it is and the energy it takes out of you. The families where the woman gets plenty of help and time to herself, who gets to treat herself to nice experiences, are usually fine. It's the ones where the man expects the woman to take care of the house and the kids all on her own while he plays video games, and yet be all smiles and shower him with attention while she's at it and jump on him as soon as she's done putting the kids to bed.
But the same could be said about any age. One will likely be a different person at 60 than they are at 40. Does that mean you shouldn't marry at 40 either? As people get older especially, their personalities tend to change - I find the older a person gets the more confident they become, less patient, less tolerant towards certain things, people become more ingrained in certain habits and ideas and less flexible to change. They are much more practical, less optimistic and romantic. Not everyone but these are fairly common tendencies. This is why, in fact, people who have remained single past their 40s or so will generally be unwilling or find it very difficult to enter a committed relationship, than those who have married young and have 'grown up' together. Giving up the 'bachelor/ette' lifestyle and sharing a living space with someone becomes less desirable when you no longer have the drive of youthful optimism and romance behind it. Indeed. I'm 28, and you described me to the T. I just don't have time for the crap I see others doing and putting up with in relationships. It's not so much the idea of sharing space that bothers me, but the sense of entitlement that someone would/could develop toward that space.
Not to mention that something like a single life event can easily change a person forever - it can take one truly traumatic experience to transform a personality at any age. And a young person who has had to face adversity and made it through may very well be more prepared than an older one who's had a charmed easy life.
What does that all mean? Means age really has nothing to do with it. I agree. My 17 year old GF in highschool was more mature than most of the chics in their late 30's I've casually seen.She is currently a successful engineer, not sure if she moved back from Dubai yet or not, but she travels all over the world vacationing and doing projects. It's more about your personal attitudes, maturity, flexibility. If you marry at 20 knowing and realizing life will hold all sorts of changes and surprises for you, and you go into the relationship with the commitment and knowledge that you will face them together, you'll be fine. Yeah, but that's a two-way street, and while you may walk it, good luck finding another person who does as well who also fits the other criteria you have. If you marry at 40 expecting the other person to forever cater to your whims (always stay young and beautiful, never be in a bad mood, always be up for sex, bring you flowers and breakfast in bed every day etc etc), you'll be in for failure. If you expect to always be treated as the #1 priority for your partner regardless of kids, other family, health issues etc and with no regard for anything but the amount of attention you receive, you'll fail (Seems to be a trait here among those who say the marriage should always come first, before kids or anything else - I don't agree). There are mature teens and immature 60 year olds. Age does not = maturity or wisdom.
I agree. Age certainly doesn't equal maturity. I've matured my sense about relationships by watching those in their 40's miserably stalk into work always saying things like "If it weren't for my boy I'd leave her." and "He isn't who I thought he was!" and so on and so forth. I've never seen a marriage that's lasted more than 10 years that I would want ANY part of. I think people just marry because "It's tradition" or they get pushed into it, and like someone who's lost an arm, some find amazing ways to get through life, and some get bitter and resentful, and some grow it back via the legal proceedings of divorce, and learn that it's not for them.
Agree 100%
The men (and it's always men, never women) who complain about the woman putting the kids first annoy me to no end. It's like a three year old throwing a tantrum because he had a newborn sibling so his mommy can't give him quite as much attention anymore. With the exception that they have the excuse of being three, unlike a grown-a$$ man who made a conscious decision to become a father with all the sacrifices and responsibilities it entails. For that matter, I notice that the men who are truly involved and helpful fathers generally aren't the ones complaining, because they know how much work it is and the energy it takes out of you. The families where the woman gets plenty of help and time to herself, who gets to treat herself to nice experiences, are usually fine. It's the ones where the man expects the woman to take care of the house and the kids all on her own while he plays video games, and yet be all smiles and shower him with attention while she's at it and jump on him as soon as she's done putting the kids to bed.
Meh. I came from a home where the parents were put first. I turned out taking responsibility for my lot in life and understanding that I was the only one who was going to be there for me. So far, it's kept me out of prison, off of welfare, and driven me hard to be self-sufficient and handle up on my own business. I don't think there is a right and/or a wrong way. Just a different way.
Agree 100%
The men (and it's always men, never women) who complain about the woman putting the kids first annoy me to no end. It's like a three year old throwing a tantrum because he had a newborn sibling so his mommy can't give him quite as much attention anymore. With the exception that they have the excuse of being three, unlike a grown-a$$ man who made a conscious decision to become a father with all the sacrifices and responsibilities it entails. For that matter, I notice that the men who are truly involved and helpful fathers generally aren't the ones complaining, because they know how much work it is and the energy it takes out of you. The families where the woman gets plenty of help and time to herself, who gets to treat herself to nice experiences, are usually fine. It's the ones where the man expects the woman to take care of the house and the kids all on her own while he plays video games, and yet be all smiles and shower him with attention while she's at it and jump on him as soon as she's done putting the kids to bed.
BBM
The woman in the second example has two or three kids and is single. Video games can go through a deluxe paper shredder pretty easily.
Of course, but waiting around for a decade for it to maybe happen simply isn't a good decision in my book.
Nor mine, which is why I advocate taking the steps necessary to make a marriage better. It's incredible arrogant to assume one should should sit around & wait for their spouse change.
Nor mine, which is why I advocate taking the steps necessary to make a marriage better. It's incredible arrogant to assume one should should sit around & wait for their spouse change.
Depends. To me it's not worth it...so guess what? Single is best.
To you it seems worth it....so maybe marriage is a good path for you.
Takes all kinds. The problem is when people like me get married, or when people like you try to push it on us. Or I guess when people like you can't get married? (What girl isn't craving the mineral....so I dunno?)
I'm thirty. I can't even recognize the person I was at 20. The thought of that guy makes me cringe.
I'm sure i'll feel the same way at 40.
That's why marriage is an immature, childish concept. How can a human being, who is ever-evolving to the point where previous "versions" of personality are 180% apart from their present reality, commit to loving another ever-evolving human being forever?
It's impossible.
And when the inevitable happens, that is you're now involved in what can best be described as a "habitual relationship," you are faced with an ugly set of options:
- divorce, which generally involves losing most of what worked for your entire life. Condemnation from several acquaintances, etc.
- living with a person that you're not in love with and either faking it, or putting your unhappiness on table as open season
I'm thirty. I can't even recognize the person I was at 20. The thought of that guy makes me cringe.
I'm sure i'll feel the same way at 40.
That's why marriage is an immature, childish concept. How can a human being, who is ever-evolving to the point where previous "versions" of personality are 180% apart from their present reality, commit to loving another ever-evolving human being forever?
It's impossible.
And when the inevitable happens, that is you're now involved in what can best be described as a "habitual relationship," you are faced with an ugly set of options:
- divorce, which generally involves losing most of what worked for your entire life. Condemnation from several acquaintances, etc.
- living with a person that you're not in love with and either faking it, or putting your unhappiness on table as open season
You shouldn't let idea of divorce cripple you. It's a whole different ball game when you really want someone. I have experienced it ( and he passed) but it exists,. The real thing doesn't change. ( it goes through changes) but when you really want someone.. it's totally different. And I am not talking about the high ego to shrug someone off, that one might not be interested in, or looking for another that is better.. I am talking about the real deal. These relationships are very hard to find but they happen and they don't go away.
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