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The charge of anti-semitism seems to be leveled at any criticism of the Jews, and yet it's open season on Christianity. Sorry this anti-semitism stuff is getting stale.
He blamed the Jews (as a group) for starting an attack on Christianity. Seems pretty anti-Semitic to me. I am only half-Jewish and non-denominational, Katarina I believe is Christian and she's the one who called him out.
Every year, the majority of religion-based hate crimes in this country (60% IIRC) are committed against the Jews, and the majority of perpetrators are Christian. Would I be correct in saying that the Christians are waging a war on Jews ? Except that this would be a wrong and biased thing to say.
Oh, you can take your religion outside! It's welcome in the streets, the public parks, the shopping mall, pretty much everywhere, really. Just don't bring it inside the public schools unless it's part of a structured educational activity that also includes other faith traditions, or into the courthouse.
(Am I the only person who thinks the Tom Lehrer song "National Brotherhood Week" should be the theme song for this thread?
And there it is: Christians own the public sphere in the US, and those pesky non-Christians better shut up if they know what's good for them. Well, there're not going to - and their numbers are rising rapidly. That "wind" is more like a breeze now, and its power is only going to continue to lessen. The time when it could be safely assumed that everyone is Christian and celebrating Christian religious traditions as though they are universal is over. Our society is becoming more religiously diverse, and we have to adjust to that fact.
If you saw the video that was contained in the article then you know that the response of the parents was outrage. You can intellectualize all that you want about out increasingly diverse society but this event had the effect of socially isolating Talia.
I disagree with your statement about Christians owning the public sphere. Television is a large part of that public sphere and it has degenerated into nonsense. Even the news is information that is unimportant and a contest of shorter skirts. There was a time when TV had shows with a moral but this new diversity dispenses with the need of that. We are a country with an increasing need for a moral sense of right and wrong. We could come together and decide on a set of moral principles until one person comes along and scuttles the whole thing.
If you saw the video that was contained in the article then you know that the response of the parents was outrage. You can intellectualize all that you want about out increasingly diverse society but this event had the effect of socially isolating Talia.
I disagree with your statement about Christians owning the public sphere. Television is a large part of that public sphere and it has degenerated into nonsense. Even the news is information that is unimportant and a contest of shorter skirts. There was a time when TV had shows with a moral but this new diversity dispenses with the need of that. We are a country with an increasing need for a moral sense of right and wrong. We could come together and decide on a set of moral principles until one person comes along and scuttles the whole thing.
Because there was no real diversity in that school. The majority of parents goose-stepped after the woman who decided to make a highly publicized stand defending her rights to shove her religious practices and religion based customs down other people's throats using shared public resources that these other people had equal rights to.
Remember, Talia didn't object to spending school time on kids doing Christmas stuff. She objected to having more time spent on Santa than on any other religious custom combined. By that, the school clearly elevated Christmas above all other traditions and customs. Which is fine if it's a private Christian school, but is improper for a public school. It would be just as improper to concentrate that way on Channukah or Ramadan or any other religious celebration.
With changing demographic and religious patterns in this country, many groups will all of a sudden find themselves a minority in a couple generations. Unless we learn to all be a part of one American family and don't force our racial / religious / whatever differences on other people in a shared public space, these groups will be on the receiving end of this "majority sets the rules" mentality. Read up on kids in California who were forbidden from wearing US flag t-shirts in school on Cinco de Mayo, because the Mexican majority would see this as an insult.
You can't have a minority forcing their way on a majority either. This is why I believe religion should have no place in a public school. But if they feel they absolutely must do this, find out what religious views your students have, what holidays they celebrate, and try to be at least somewhat even-handed in covering them.
Last edited by Ummagumma; 12-25-2015 at 11:50 AM..
He blamed the Jews (as a group) for starting an attack on Christianity. Seems pretty anti-Semitic to me. I am only half-Jewish and non-denominational, Katarina I believe is Christian and she's the one who called him out.
Every year, the majority of religion-based hate crimes in this country (60% IIRC) are committed against the Jews, and the majority of perpetrators are Christian. Would I be correct in saying that the Christians are waging a war on Jews ? Except that this would be a wrong and biased thing to say.
Nonsense. My response to Katrina was that she went overboard in calling two others anti-semites. Not only do you call people names you make things up to get your point across. Before I said that you were losing this debate. Now I say that you've lost the debate by being creative with what wasn't said.
Then you need to understand that in the late 1800s, our beloved public school traditions included mandatory reading of the King James Bible by students in class and the recitation by students of specifically Protestant prayers. Guess why those beloved traditions went away?
YOUR faith was seen as something alien and undesirable not so very long ago.
First the big adjustment was accommodating the reality that not every American was Protestant. Then the big adjustment was accommodating the reality that Jews lived here too, not just Christians. Now the big adjustment is that a whole array of non-Christian and non-Jewish folks live here as well. Public scrolls have to adapt to this, as they adapted in the past. And they will.
I have no dual citizenship to renounce. Are you going to denounce your dual allegiance to Rome?
(FYI, I was raised Roman Catholic. And you may not know this, but the old "dual allegiance" lie is STILL being said about Catholics in some quarters.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma
A lot of Christians aren't very tolerant of other Christians.
A distant relative / friend of mine has a wife from the former USSR who's Greek Orthodox. His parents flat out told her she's not a true Christian and must convert. They are Catholic but don't belong to the "mainstream" church.
This is why none of this crap belongs in a public school, especially the kindergarten. Keep your religion at home. Whatever it is.
Oh, not this again you guys!
I grew up in an area that is still today 50% Catholic; back in my day it was more like 75% of so by my best guess, and many of them observant. At the time, the choices of entree for school lunches were 1. Take it, or 2. Leave it. On Fridays, the entree was meatless for the Catholic students. Now I didn't really care; I like fish, mac and cheese and the like, but a group of parents did get up in arms about it when I was in about 7th grade (this would be about 1962 or so) and protest "religious discrimination". So on Fridays we had a choice of entree, and I usually took the meatless as a (gasp!) Protestant.
I did not call anyone anti-semitic; I said some of the posts were anti-semitic.
I started a thread on politics and controversy named the "War on Christmas Continues". Other threads in that category tend to support my thread rather than the claims of the skeptics.
As a Roman Catholic some of my earliest memories are of the Christmas Tree and the joy leading up to and including Christmas day. Memories such as these are cherished.
When people such as Thalia assert their social imperatives, they don't realize how deep the attack is on our traditions or how much resentment it creates.
And I feel just the opposite. That whole "war on Christmas" is much ado about nothing. That from even before December 1, things began shifting to Christmas, Christmas, Christmas. On television, in stores, on select radio stations, etc. I don't think that there's a waking hour in at least 2 weeks that I haven't been bombarded with Christmas.
And yes, I still relate to being at least partly Christian (in fact, went to Christmas service last night for the first time in years), have my tree and decorations, have attended multiple holiday get-togethers with a couple more coming, sent my cards, gave my gifts. And more. In this "war", what is it that I haven't been able to do related to Christmas that I wanted to do. Not one thing.
What disappoints me the most about "the war on Christmas" is that those claiming it show no sensitivity for those who do not celebrate Christmas. Which is exactly the opposite of what I would call the "Christmas spirit".
Christmas is an international holiday. It is also a very American holiday. When we look at the establishment clause we need to see it in its historical context. Oliver Cromwell mounted a war on the Catholics in England that killed many thousands. Other religious sects were actively persecuted in England and around Europe. Our founding fathers were educated men and were painfully aware of the destructive nature of a national religion. I hardly think that this bus trip rises to those standards of persecution.
Also you always seem to forget the other side of the establishment clause "or free exercise of".
When a holiday like Christmas is so deeply ingrained in the hearts of Christians, this woman can't realize that her social crusade did far more damage than good. Social crusaders like this woman are spitting into the wind.
No, Tony, it's not really an international holiday. Much of the world does not celebrate December 25 with a holiday.
You had just shown your true colors. A biased troll.
Not that long ago, someone would accuse you of having dual loyalties and putting Pope above your country. Luckily these days are past us. Too bad you never learned from the religious persecution your own people would experience just over 50 years ago.
Because there was no real diversity in that school. The majority of parents goose-stepped after the woman who decided to make a highly publicized stand defending her rights to shove her religious practices and religion based customs down other people's throats using shared public resources that these other people had equal rights to.
Remember, Talia didn't object to spending school time on kids doing Christmas stuff. She objected to having more time spent on Santa than on any other religious custom combined. By that, the school clearly elevated Christmas above all other traditions and customs. Which is fine if it's a private Christian school, but is improper for a public school. It would be just as improper to concentrate that way on Channukah or Ramadan or any other religious celebration.
With changing demographic and religious patterns in this country, many groups will all of a sudden find themselves a minority in a couple generations. Unless we learn to all be a part of one American family and don't force our racial / religious / whatever differences on other people in a shared public space, these groups will be on the receiving end of this "majority sets the rules" mentality. Read up on kids in California who were forbidden from wearing US flag t-shirts in school on Cinco de Mayo, because the Mexican majority would see this as an insult.
You can't have a minority forcing their way on a majority either. This is why I believe religion should have no place in a public school. But if they feel they absolutely must do this, find out what religious views your students have, what holidays they celebrate, and try to be at least somewhat even-handed in covering them.
Much better post than the last one. Reasoning with me works much better. I think that different regions have different practices. The link below is the New York Public School calendar:
Look at September. If you want an objective opinion don't ask the kids.
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