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For the fifth time on here, Jewish law largely precludes autopsies (link).
How do Jewish people deal with crime victims? Not arguing just plain curious.
From the article: However, when an autopsy is necessary, permission to undertake this procedure should be given only if the operation is reduced to a minimum, performed as soon as possible–and in the presence of a rabbi or observant and halakhically (having to do with Jewish law) knowledgeable physician — and undertaken with reverence. There must be absolute assurance that all parts of the body will be retained for burial.
Because, however, the frequency of autopsies has increased, the danger exists of their becoming mere routine; and because recent studies (particularly the Journal of the American Medical Associa*tion, vol.233, 1975, pp. 441-443) have shown the questionable medical value of routine performance of postmortem dissections, permission should be withheld unless a physician who is sensitive to the halakhah [Jewish law] advises its performance in terms of the criteria for saving life which have been listed above.
Suicide makes a whole lot more sense than the current theories circulating on Fox News and other conservative media outlets. I still see people in this forum claiming that North Korea abused and/or tortured Warmbier, which can only be possible if you believe that the American doctors that examined him and declared that they found zero evidence of any torture, physical abuse or injury are working with the North Koreans in a multinational conspiracy to kill Americans and cover it up.
Like I said, Occam's Razor. People facing long prison sentences try to kill themselves all the time, just recently the NFL player facing life with no parole did it. What is the simplest and easiest way to explain how a person looking at 15 years in a foreign prison ended up with brain injuries the doctors say were most likely caused by oxygen depravation? A systemic torture campaign orchestrated by the NK government that left no signs of physical trauma or past injury according to US doctors? Or, a despondent and depressed prisoner facing more than a decade in a third world prison used bedsheets, shoelaces or a belt to give himself an early release?
At 23, though?
He was that hopeless?
My grandfather was a POW at that age and he survived the Nazi camps. It is hard for me to fathom. Possible I guess.
Suicide makes a whole lot more sense than the current theories circulating on Fox News and other conservative media outlets. I still see people in this forum claiming that North Korea abused and/or tortured Warmbier, which can only be possible if you believe that the American doctors that examined him and declared that they found zero evidence of any torture, physical abuse or injury are working with the North Koreans in a multinational conspiracy to kill Americans and cover it up.
Like I said, Occam's Razor. People facing long prison sentences try to kill themselves all the time, just recently the NFL player facing life with no parole did it. What is the simplest and easiest way to explain how a person looking at 15 years in a foreign prison ended up with brain injuries the doctors say were most likely caused by oxygen depravation? A systemic torture campaign orchestrated by the NK government that left no signs of physical trauma or past injury according to US doctors? Or, a despondent and depressed prisoner facing more than a decade in a third world prison used bedsheets, shoelaces or a belt to give himself an early release?
It was the first thing that came to my mind when the doctors said there was a lack of oxygen to the brain...
The media is not telling the full story out of respect for the family. With the American doctors stating there was no sign of physical abuse or torture, applying Occam's Razor gets you to the only reasonable explanation. A 22 year old ex frat boy couldn't deal with the thought of spending 15 years doing hard labor in a NK prison. He was able to obtain drugs, a belt or some other materials which he used to attempt to kill himself. I suspect that the parents were given journals or a suicide note that make it clear what really happened. Why perform an autopsy if you already know they tried to kill themselves?
Suicide is the "only reasonable explanation" ??
How did you come to that conclusion ??
The doctors said it was not a result of traumatic brain injury but anoxic brain injury, where the brain is starved of oxygen. There are many, many things that could have caused that.
Yes, there are lots of compassionless posts like that on this thread, where the narrative becomes all about heartlessly blaming the "white, privileged, entitled" victim, while ignoring the massive crimes of a vicious dictator.. (yes, we get it , Otto should not have been in NK).
Both Otto's capture/death and these type of responses deeply sadden me. And I'm sure I'll get flack for calling it out...
Are these the type of themes at work on this thread?...
"It wasn’t the extrajudicial nature of Warmbier’s capture that caught the attention of the liberal commentary class. Nor was it the triviality of his supposed “crime.” In fact, the only thing that appeared to intrigue some influential members of the identity-obsessed left was Warmbier’s background.".......
"Privilege” is how social-justice advocates describe those who they think should be found guilty under a Rawlsian ideal of distributive justice. So what made Warmbier so deserving of his captivity and mistreatment at the hands of a famously brutal Stalinist regime? Huffington Post blogger La Sha was more direct than Wilmore in March 2016: his heritage. Specifically, his “white male privilege.”.....
"At the Huffington Post, self-described “revolutionary” writer La Sha went on an extended rant that once again accepted North Korea’s version of events and then imputed to Warmbier a bulletproof sense of white privilege. It ends like this:
What a mind-blowing moment it must be to realize after 21 years of being pedestaled by the world simply because your DNA coding produced the favorable phenotype that such favor is not absolute
This is how we get polarization. This is how we get cocooning. This is one way that Americans learn to hate each other. This problem preceded Trump, and it will endure long after he leaves. It’s incumbent on each of America’s great political movements to do their best to police their own, and the Left has failed, utterly, to address the hatred in its midst. Instead its great institutions celebrate it, embrace it, and grant platforms for cruelty and malice. Otto Warmbier is but one victim. There are — and will be — many more to come." https://www.google.com/amp/amp.natio...s-hate-problem
Said the RW links...Not every poster that said OW was stupid for going to NK is from "the left", not every poster who mentioned the idea of 'privilege' is from "the left". One could post just as many instances of "the right" using inflammatory statements about this and any number of other controversial events...sort of like the links you've provided. It's a two way street and there is plenty of blame to go around.
The doctors said it was not a result of traumatic brain injury but anoxic brain injury, where the brain is starved of oxygen. There are many, many things that could have caused that.
Is the botulism plus sleeping pill explanation plausible?
Said the RW links...Not every poster that said OW was stupid for going to NK is from "the left", not every poster who mentioned the idea of 'privilege' is from "the left". One could post just as many instances of "the right" using inflammatory statements about this and any number of other controversial events...sort of like the links you've provided. It's a two way street and there is plenty of blame to go around.
This is obviously not about Otto being called "stupid" (who said that?). The issue is about the lack of compassion and obsession on Otto's "entitlement," "rich mommy and daddy," "white privilege" etc.. etc.. from posters who quite likely do not personally know Otto, nor his parents, nor the truth of the NK situation. They make excuses for human atrocities in NK (hey, they have their own rules) yet they rip apart Otto's character and what he represents while he is on his deathbed. He is just a caricature of "white privileged and entitlement" to some, rather than a real, flawed, yet loved human being.
Is the botulism plus sleeping pill explanation plausible?
I think one of Otto's neurology doctors stated that there was no evidence indicating botulism.
North Korea is known for its torture including water torture.
A near drowning would be one possibility to explain oxygen deprivation to the brain.
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It's a two way street and there is plenty of blame to go around.