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I could not read the full article. But from whatever limited I read, it seems to be anecdotal. Unless there were specific guidelines from the Swedish govt to do what is being reported in that article, I would not generalize it. Having said that, the top epidemiologist acknowledged that the treatment of covid-19 patients in nursing homes is a failure and that "too many patients died in nursing homes." It has been corrected since then.
In my opinion, no country has been perfect in their response. Sweden adopted a strategy that they thought is right from them. As the epidemiologist mentioned, let's judge their response in a year's time.
Daily deaths in Sweden has been close to 0 for all of July, with total deaths around 5000 for a population of 10 million. Based on all the media reports, their death toll should have been exploding currently, isn't it? They have not been advised by thr govt and have nlt been wearing masks even, however citizens voluntarily have been following social distancing guidelines and quarantining guidelines for the older population. No stringent shutdowns were in place throughout.
To put that number in perspective, NY state had total deaths of 32,000 for a population of 18 million and NYC had total of 22000 deaths for a population of 8.3 million with stringent shutdown of almost 2 months.
Quote:
Originally Posted by move4ward
The Wall Street Journal isn't some Plandemic Facebook post.
I could not read the full article. But from whatever limited I read, it seems to be anecdotal. Unless there were specific guidelines from the Swedish govt to do what is being reported in that article, I would not generalize it. Having said that, the top epidemiologist acknowledged that the treatment of covid-19 patients in nursing homes is a failure and that "too many patients died in nursing homes." It has been corrected since then.
In my opinion, no country has been perfect in their response. Sweden adopted a strategy that they thought is right from them. As the epidemiologist mentioned, let's judge their response in a year's time.
Daily deaths in Sweden has been close to 0 for all of July, with total deaths around 5000 for a population of 10 million. Based on all the media reports, their death toll should have been exploding currently, isn't it? They have not been advised by thr govt and have nlt been wearing masks even, however citizens voluntarily have been following social distancing guidelines and quarantining guidelines for the older population. No stringent shutdowns were in place throughout.
To put that number in perspective, NY state had total deaths of 32,000 for a population of 18 million and NYC had total of 22000 deaths for a population of 8.3 million with stringent shutdown of almost 2 months.
Good post. The thing that can't be calculated and I don't think will ever be, is how man lives we destroyed or hurt by locking down for months. In the end, in my opinion it will be worse than this virus.
A Dallas conservative believed in the "scamdemic" theory that the virus is a hoax. He posted a mea culpa to Dallas Voice. 4 members of his family contracted Coronavirus after a backyard barbecue. One family member is dead, and his father-in-law was placed on a ventilator at Medical City Dallas.
"The virus had attacked my central nervous system, and the staff stopped me from having a stroke," he wrote in Friday's essay.
Quote:
"I admit traveling deep into the conspiracy trap over COVID-19," he acknowledged. Green described himself as a gay conservative in his recent essay, and said he voted to elect President Donald Trump in 2016.
"You cannot imagine my guilt at having been a denier, carelessly shuffling through this pandemic, making fun of those wearing masks and social distancing," he continued. "For those who deny the virus exists or who downplay its severity, let me assure you: The coronavirus is very real and extremely contagious. Before you even know you have it, you've passed it along to your friends, family, coworkers and neighbors."
So you believe that Sweden intentionally killed its citizens to not deal with their hospitalizations?
I believe it because I have cousins who live in Sweden and they told me about it before it ever made it to media outlets. According to them several families have filed lawsuits. The 'cocktail' they got was midazolam, morphine and haldol. They told families they had no choice and that the aides in the rest homes were foreign and it was too hard to teach them how to administer oxygen.
Quote:
“The ICU wards were comparatively empty,” said Dr Cecilia Söderberg-Nauclér, of Karolinska University Hospital. “Elderly people were not taken to hospitals—they are given sedatives but not oxygen or basic care.”
Yngve Gustafsson, a geriatrics specialist at Umea University, told the BMJ that the proportion of older people in respiratory care nationally was lower than at the same time a year before, even though people over 70 were the worst affected by Covid-19. He, too, was aghast at the practice of doctors prescribing a “palliative cocktail” for sick older people in care homes over the telephone.
“Older people are routinely being given morphine and midazolam, which are respiratory-inhibiting,” he told the Svenska Dagbladet newspaper, “It’s active euthanasia, to say the least.”
Even the government has admitted that the strategy was misguided. "We have to admit that when it comes to elderly care and the spread of infection, that has not worked," Prime Minister Stefan Löfven told Swedish newspaper The Aftonbladet Daily. "Too many old people have died here." https://www.bioedge.org/bioethics/qu...ng-homes/13479
It is impossible that the govt will provide guidelines for providing a cocktail based on a reasoning that you state below.
Also the article mentions that the govt acknlwledged that the "strategy did not work" and I believe that the strategy being referred to is keeping the infected older people at nursing homes and not giving "cocktails" to patients. It was left to nursing homes as to how to treat them. The epidemiologist acknowledges that it was a mistake not to transfer the nursing home patients to hospitals.
Linking that strategy to claiming that the govt advising on giving the "cocktail" is a stretch, in my opinion. Also, remember that this was all happening quite fast in March/April so there was very limited coordination between govt and nusring homes. The objective of the govt was to keep the hospitalizations to manageable level, given the projection of infected cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
I believe it because I have cousins who live in Sweden and they told me about it before it ever made it to media outlets. According to them several families have filed lawsuits. The 'cocktail' they got was midazolam, morphine and haldol. They told families they had no choice and that the aides in the rest homes were foreign and it was too hard to teach them how to administer oxygen.n.
It is impossible that the govt will provide guidelines for providing a cocktail based on a reasoning that you state below.
Also the article mentions that the govt acknlwledged that the "strategy did not work" and I believe that the strategy being referred to is keeping the infected older people at nursing homes and not giving "cocktails" to patients. It was left to nursing homes as to how to treat them. The epidemiologist acknowledges that it was a mistake not to transfer the nursing home patients to hospitals.
Linking that strategy to claiming that the govt advising on giving the "cocktail" is a stretch, in my opinion. Also, remember that this was all happening quite fast in March/April so there was very limited coordination between govt and nusring homes. The objective of the govt was to keep the hospitalizations to manageable level, given the projection of infected cases.
I am disappointed that you are trying to make excuses for this horrible policy, but it is irrefutable that they were official triage guidelines, that is stated in this article and is consistent with what my relatives in Sweden told me.
This is from a WSJ article, I don't have access to the entire article due to the WSJ impenetrable paywall.
Quote:
Thomas Linden, chief medical officer of Sweden’s National Board of Health and Welfare, said the triage guidelines for Covid 19 were developed to prepare the health-care system for a potential crisis while ensuring best-possible treatment for all patients. http://https://nancyvalko.com/2020/0...o-the-elderly/
I am not making excuses. I do not know the details of what exactly happened at nursing homes, and neither do you. You are reporting from stories that you have heard from your relatives and media articles, who do not seem to be providing absolute numbers but taking 1 or 2 stories and creating an article based on those storiies. Taking a few cases and generalizing it to say that it happened universally to all patients in the nursing homes is a stretch. Having said that, the epidemiologist acknowledged that Sweden's response at nursing homes was a failure and that "too many people died at the nursing homes".
My bigger point is that Sweden was able to achieve what it was able to achieve without stringent shutdowns. As per the epidemiologist, he thinks that stringent shutdowns would not have resulted in better results. He also thinks that Sweden should be better prepared for the second wave and he does not intend to do any shutdowns. Even his perspective on masks wearing is interesting, if you would like to see his interview that I posted a few pages ago.
This one is a bit dated. But this April interview with ex-epidemiologist (advisor for the current epidemiologist) of Sweden articulates well why Sweden took the approach it took. It is fascinating. He also mentions about the mistakes that were committed at the nursing homes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
I am disappointed that you are trying to make excuses for this horrible policy, but it is irrefutable that they were official triage guidelines, that is stated in this article and is consistent with what my relatives in Sweden told me.
This is from a WSJ article, I don't have access to the entire article due to the WSJ impenetrable paywall.
Last edited by CDContribuitor; 07-27-2020 at 11:19 AM..
I am not making excuses. I do not know the details of what exactly happened at nursing homes, and neither do you. You are reporting from stories that you have heard from your relatives and media articles, who do not seem to be providing absolute numbers but taking 1 or 2 stories and creating an article based on those storiies. Taking a few cases and generalizing it to say that it happened universally to all patients in the nursing homes is a stretch. Having said that, the epidemiologist acknowledged that Sweden's response at nursing homes was a failure and that "too many people died at the nursing homes".
My bigger point is that Sweden was able to achieve what it was able to achieve without stringent shutdowns. As per the epidemiologist, he thinks that stringent shutdowns would not have resulted in better results. He also thinks that Sweden should be better prepared for the second wave and he does not intend to do any shutdowns. Even his perspective on masks wearing is interesting, if you would like to see his interview that I posted a few pages ago.
OMG now what are you saying that my relatives who have lived in Stockholm are lying, or maybe you think I am? Good God. I can give you more articles but you will likely dismiss them as well so there's really no use, is there? And it's not just a "few cases".
Sweden had the highest death rate of any Nordic Country What they failed to do was protect the elderly and the chronically ill, and they now admit that. The sad part is that in many documented cases it went beyond neglect and involved euthanasia.
Please provide me absolute data sources that proves that all or most of the deaths that happened in the nursing homes were due to administering of the "cocktail" that you are mentioning. I did not say you are lying or your relatives are lying. You mentioned in your earlier post - According to your relatives, several families have filed lawsuits for having been administered "cocktail". I do not know what percentage is that "several that filed law-suits" of the total number of deaths that happened in the nursing homes - 10%, 25%, 50%, 75% or 100%?
Did you view the 2 videos that I posted along with my post? I am posting them again for you. Please view them in full and provide your perspectives based on what you hear from the top epidemiologists. I honestly would like to hear your counter-argument to their points that they are making. The epidemiologist provides you an argument as to why Sweden cannot be compared to Denmark, Norway, Finland.
This one is a bit dated. But this April interview with ex-epidemiologist (advisor for the current epidemiologist) of Sweden articulates well why Sweden took the approach it took. It is fascinating. He also mentions about the mistakes that were committed at the nursing homes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY
My concern is that there was a narrative and a response that was started by the Chinese govt and most of the countries were sucked into adopting that response, consciously or sub-consciously. Anyways, you seem to be posting the same talking points across all coronavirus threads, across this forum.
The deaths in the nursing homes in Sweden is a tragedy, so are the deaths that happened within nursing homes at NYC. The point that I am making is that there was problems in how it was handled in nursing homes in Sweden, US and in many countries, as is reflected by the absolute number of deaths in nursing homes. Claiming that a mal-practice that may have been done in a few nursing homes was a standard practice that was followed by all the nursing homes and that too under the guidance of the govt, is far-fetched.
From the article that you posted, it mentions that the elderly in the nursing homes were denied treatment, but not that they were administered "cocktails". See below -
Thomas Linden, chief medical officer of Sweden’s National Board of Health and Welfare, said the triage guidelines for Covid 19 were developed to prepare the health-care system for a potential crisis while ensuring best-possible treatment for all patients. However, the Wall Street Journal article reports that Swedish critics say these guidelines have too often resulted in older patients being denied treatment, even when hospitals were operating below capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
OMG now what are you saying that my relatives who have lived in Stockholm are lying, or maybe you think I am? Good God. I can give you more articles but you will likely dismiss them as well so there's really no use, is there? And it's not just a "few cases".
Sweden had the highest death rate of any Nordic Country What they failed to do was protect the elderly and the chronically ill, and they now admit that. The sad part is that in many documented cases it went beyond neglect and involved euthanasia.
Please provide me absolute data sources that proves that all or most of the deaths that happened in the nursing homes were due to administering of the "cocktail" that you are mentioning. I did not say you are lying or your relatives are lying. You mentioned in your earlier post - According to your relatives, several families have filed lawsuits for having been administered "cocktail". I do not know what percentage is that "several that filed law-suits" of the total number of deaths that happened in the nursing homes - 10%, 25%, 50%, 75% or 100%?
Did you view the 2 videos that I posted along with my post? I am posting them again for you. Please view them in full and provide your perspectives based on what you hear from the top epidemiologists. I honestly would like to hear your counter-argument to their points that they are making. The epidemiologist provides you an argument as to why Sweden cannot be compared to Denmark, Norway, Finland.
This one is a bit dated. But this April interview with ex-epidemiologist (advisor for the current epidemiologist) of Sweden articulates well why Sweden took the approach it took. It is fascinating. He also mentions about the mistakes that were committed at the nursing homes.
My concern is that there was a narrative and a response that was started by the Chinese govt and most of the countries were sucked into adopting that response, consciously or sub-consciously. Anyways, you seem to be posting the same talking points across all coronavirus threads, across this forum.
The deaths in the nursing homes in Sweden is a tragedy, so are the deaths that happened within nursing homes at NYC. The point that I am making is that there was problems in how it was handled in nursing homes in Sweden, US and in many countries, as is reflected by the absolute number of deaths in nursing homes. Claiming that a mal-practice that may have been done in a few nursing homes was a standard practice that was followed by all the nursing homes and that too under the guidance of the govt, is far-fetched.
From the article that you posted, it mentions that the elderly in the nursing homes were denied treatment, but not that they were administered "cocktails". See below -
Thomas Linden, chief medical officer of Sweden’s National Board of Health and Welfare, said the triage guidelines for Covid 19 were developed to prepare the health-care system for a potential crisis while ensuring best-possible treatment for all patients. However, the Wall Street Journal article reports that Swedish critics say these guidelines have too often resulted in older patients being denied treatment, even when hospitals were operating below capacity.
I am not spending an hour listening to those. I gave you references, ignore them if you like but don't tell me that to know the truth I need to listen the guy who dreamed up this whole mess as he tries to explain away the fact that it didn't turn out like they planned. And the link I provided does discuss the practice of killing the elderly rather than hospitalizing them.
Giving an elderly person who is having trouble breathing morphine and midazolam was not a 'mistake' it was euthanasia.
Last edited by 2sleepy; 07-27-2020 at 04:34 PM..
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