Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Not hyperbole at all. My daughter is a vegan, my good friend has been a vegan for over 30 years, and I managed 6 months as a vegan. The recurring theme is getting B12.
I know there are people with opinions think that is BS. Sounds like you are one of them. It is no skin off my nose if you choose not to supplement. But people who are wanting to try going vegan should be aware of the science.
. These are links to Pubmed, a free search engine accessing primarily the MEDLINE database of references and abstracts on life sciences and biomedical topics. These are not unknown links.
You are dismissing research without even clicking on the links?
If you’re willing to dismiss research on the grounds of funding source (a bias on its own), then you’d have to be consistent & dismiss most diet/nutrition research in existence, including any beloved reviews/studies that support your own opinions: https://www.nature.com/articles/ijo201432
The scientific evidence I posted is not saying that being vegan/vegetarian is unhealthy. It’s simply showing that vegans can be deficient in iron.
I suspect the "unknown" reference was to you, personally. Unknown because you never reveal anything about yourself, or struggle with dietary issues. It's odd. Maybe, like another poster suggested, you are a paid spokesperson with a pretty oppositional agenda, paid for by hard cash. That's my impression, anyway, also.
I suspect the "unknown" reference was to you, personally. Unknown because you never reveal anything about yourself, or struggle with dietary issues. It's odd. Maybe, like another poster suggested, you are a paid spokesperson with a pretty oppositional agenda, paid for by hard cash. That's my impression, anyway, also.
It doesn’t matter who I am. The scientific research is from hundreds of different scientists from many different sources, university’s etc. I am not tied to any specific way of eating and could care less what diet you follow. If the data said that meat eaters were low on iron that is the evidence that I would post but somehow you think that if I post evidence against the way you eat I am somehow a paid spokesperson with an agenda. How about actually reading the evidence and finding issues with the data itself or the methodology instead of taking the easy way out and attacking the funding source or the poster himself? Or you could post studies yourself that back up your claims.
Supplements
In a vegan diet, using a supplement or consuming fortified foods is the only way to obtain vitamin B12. As the body can only absorb a limited amount of vitamin B12 at any one time, it is better to take small doses more often, instead of large doses less often. One study found that small doses of vitamin B12 in the range of 0.1–0.5 µg resulted in absorption ranging between 52% and 97%; doses of 1 µg and 5 µg resulted in mean absorption of 56% and 28%, respectively, while higher doses had even lower absorption, with 10 µg and 50 µg doses resulting in 16% and 3%, respectively, being absorbed.17 While sublingual supplements are often promoted as being more efficiently absorbed, there is no evidence to show that this form of supplement is superior to regular oral vitamin B12.44 Vitamin B12 supplements are not made from animal-based products and are suitable for inclusion in a vegan diet.
Conclusion
Vitamin B12 deficiency is a potential concern for anyone with insufficient dietary intake of vitamin B12, including those adhering to a vegan or vegetarian diet or significantly restricting animal-based foods. Studies have found that vegetarians, particularly vegans, have lower serum vitamin B12 levels, and it is likely that anyone avoiding animal-based foods will eventually become deficient if their diet is not supplemented. All vegans, and lacto-ovo-vegetarians who don’t consume adequate amounts of dairy products or eggs to provide sufficient vitamin B12, should therefore supplement their diet with vitamin B12 from fortified foods or supplements. It is particularly important that pregnant or breastfeeding vegan and vegetarian women consume a reliable source of vitamin B12 to reduce the risk of their baby developing a vitamin B12 deficiency.
Unbalanced vegetarian diets could be lacking in nutrients that are poorly represented in vegetal foodstuffs or with a low bioavailability (e.g., iron, zinc, vitamin D, ω3 polyunsaturated fatty acids) [17]. However, only Cbl seems to be virtually absent in vegetables and its shortage can have serious implications.
It doesn’t matter who I am. The scientific research is from hundreds of different scientists from many different sources, university’s etc. I am not tied to any specific way of eating and could care less what diet you follow. If the data said that meat eaters were low on iron that is the evidence that I would post but somehow you think that if I post evidence against the way you eat I am somehow a paid spokesperson with an agenda. How about actually reading the evidence and finding issues with the data itself or the methodology instead of taking the easy way out and attacking the funding source or the poster himself? Or you could post studies yourself that back up your claims.
Ah, no; I'm not doing things your way! Do you really belong here in this forum if all you do is Google stuff and post it? While everyone else talks about personal experiences and individual struggles? A child can use Google. Is that really supposed to be helpful? It isn't.
This is not my way, but if you cannot provide evidence or read a study to discuss the data itself then your claims are nothing but your own personal opinions. The science backs up what I'm saying that vegans/vegetarians have a high likelyhood of developing an iron deficiency yet your claims that is not the case are from other people's personal experiences or your own.
Quote:
Do you really belong here in this forum if all you do is Google stuff and post it?
Actually I post stuff from Pubmed and other databases. Not Google. You know actual scientific work from real scientists. Not Google articles and personal opinions.
Quote:
While everyone else talks about personal experiences and individual struggles? A child can use Google. Is that really supposed to be helpful? It isn't.
Personal experience is nothing more than your own opinion. Just because a specific diet works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone else. If I lose weight on a high carb diet as an athlete does that mean a sedentary obese individual should also follow my way of eating because of my personal experience? In my personal experience I follow the scientific data because that is what is the highest likely hood of working. Yes, posting actual scientific data, not pseudoscience and baseless claims is what's going to be helpful to others. I don't go around bashing other people's way of eating telling them they should eat a certain way or that my personal experience is the only way you should eat.
Isn't that kind of robotic to refuse to give credence to personal experience and to demand everyone comply with your methodology? I've examined hundreds of studies over the last 50 or so years. I'm not going to look them up in order to argue with you.
Most people don't read this stuff and are not starting any time soon. But you'd have to have social skills to recognize that little detail. I'm hoping that people consider the long term ecological effects of their food choices. As a scientist, that should be your concern as well. Perhaps you should apply your research skills to that.
Isn't that kind of robotic to refuse to give credence to personal experience and to demand everyone comply with your methodology? I've examined hundreds of studies over the last 50 or so years. I'm not going to look them up in order to argue with you.
Most people don't read this stuff and are not starting any time soon. But you'd have to have social skills to recognize that little detail. I'm hoping that people consider the long term ecological effects of their food choices. As a scientist, that should be your concern as well. Perhaps you should apply your research skills to that.
At any rate, our interchange is done. Pointless.
Everyone's personal experience on a certain diet is different than others. I'm not sure what personal experience has to do with the fact that the scientific evidence shows that vegans/vegetarians tend to have higher amounts of deficiencies in things like B12 and Iron.
Am I saying the vegan diet is bad or that no one should do it? No, of course not. If the vegan diet works for you than GREAT!! Keep doing it!!!! But you just can't go around making baseless claims and then attack a poster or the sources when someone puts up evidence refuting your claims or you don't like their viewpoints. It really makes you look like a zealot.
Not hyperbole at all. My daughter is a vegan, my good friend has been a vegan for over 30 years, and I managed 6 months as a vegan. The recurring theme is getting B12.
I know there are people with opinions think that is BS. Sounds like you are one of them. It is no skin off my nose if you choose not to supplement. But people who are wanting to try going vegan should be aware of the science.
You might want to try reading my post again. Slower, if necessary.
Where did you get the idea that I don't supplement? I stated that 40% of the overall population is deficient so there's no reason for people to focus on the 1% or 2% of the population who refrain from eating animal products. I also specifically stated that Vegans get their B12 from pills or injections and meat eaters get theirs from cattle that receive B12 supplementation. Since you seem to have had a problem following along, let me C&P the pertinent part of my post here for you to read again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadManofBethesda
So I'm not really sure why meat eaters single out Vegans about B12. Vegans can easily get a sufficient amount by taking a pill (or a periodic injection) and meat eaters get theirs by eating the flesh of animals who have been given B12 supplements. EIther way, supplementation is involved; it's just that Vegans are cutting out the middleman (or the middle animal, as the case may be ).
Oh, and by the way, neither of your links link to a study that states that a Vegan diet is unhealthy without supplementation. Which, as you know, is what you claimed. They simply state that Vegans need to be careful if they don't supplement and they recommend supplementation to make it easier to acquire all the requisite nutrients.
Isn't that kind of robotic to refuse to give credence to personal experience and to demand everyone comply with your methodology? I've examined hundreds of studies over the last 50 or so years. I'm not going to look them up in order to argue with you.
Most people don't read this stuff and are not starting any time soon. But you'd have to have social skills to recognize that little detail. I'm hoping that people consider the long term ecological effects of their food choices. As a scientist, that should be your concern as well. Perhaps you should apply your research skills to that.
At any rate, our interchange is done. Pointless.
So just what is the difference between anecdotal evidence, which in your response to Luckydog609 in Post #101, you claim is not valid evidence, and personal experience, which in your post quoted above you criticise the poster for "refusing to give credence to......"?
The anecdotal evidence you claimed was referring to Luckydog's relating his/her personal experience with vegan diets.....
Or does it just depend on whether or not the personal experience goes along with what you choose to believe?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
