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I'm not sure about the breed changing so much over time. I do think it has been refined as many breeds do very well change. Of course I never argued this as history of most breeds show that to happen. The historic photos were used to show what the early APBTs did look like which isn't a SBT/Bullmastiff type dog. The Petey pics don't really prove the change though because there were APBTs in the 20s who didn't look like him as he isn't the standard for the breed or anything. I like the look of the refined Pits a bit better then some of the older ones, while I don't think they were totally ugly the body is just kind of barrel like on some of them. The AST has also went through a dramatic change over the years.
Some APBTs look closer to their ancestors then others. Today there are APBTs which look different. Which just ads more confusion on what a Pit Bull looks like. There are many APBTs that don't look like one another. There are APBTs that don't look like my dogs. Some that don't look like their ancestors. You can see 5 different looking APBTs, different sizes, heads and builds.
Granted many "pit bulls" are mixed and people still want the Pit image so they call them that. In other cases they have been bred away from the standard to someone's personal ideal and not what best represents the breed. Others are just bred just to make cute pups so their owner can enjoy it even though they don't look like a standard APBT. Those people don't think they are hurting the breed because they are breeding pets or breeding what they want and let you know to keep your mouth shut. I'll never agree with breeding off standard Pits that don't look/act correct but I guess there isn't much I can do about it. They threaten the breeds existence and my right to an APBT as a companion. Really makes it seem hard for responsible owners to totally combat BSL. It is so unfair, when they are banned those people who don't truly love the APBT will just move onto another breed.
As far as the looks it also seems to be the case in Labs, not sure about other breeds besides the rare and developing ones. Anyway one Lab breeder was explaining how you could have 5 Labs which look different. Conformation, byb, field, ect. It was a very interesting read amazing how breeds can be so divided.
It seems to me that in the last thirty years, that pit bull owners prefer their dogs to have a more muscular build and a bigger "brick" like head. I've been doing a lot of research and several pit bull pages and sites had descriptions like this:
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The Pit Bull immediately strikes one as being a dog of power, passion, and undying willingness. The brick-like head, which is especially broad between the cheeks (to house the powerful jaws), is carried upon a thickly muscled, well-defined neck. The neck runs into a deep, thick, well-sprung chest. The American Pit Bull is a very muscular, stocky, yet agile dog which is extremely strong for his size. The ears are generally cropped, though this is optional. Docked tails are not accepted by the UKC or the [SIZE=3]ADBA[/SIZE]. The eyes are round, and any color is acceptable. The teeth should form a scissors bite. Its coat is made up of thick, short, shiny hair. All colors are admissible. The tail tapers to a point.
And quite honestly, these traits are not what I would ever want in a pet quality dog. I want devoted loving furballs of love where I am easily the alpha of my pack. I have no desire to own a working breed dog that needs a daily training and exercise workouts. There are many dog breeds that I feel since they were bred for a specific job that have no business living in a regular household. My dogs are not a fashion statement and I didn't pick them out for their looks or novelty.
I think that you are up to the task of owning your pit bulls properly, but many owners pick out their dog because its looks appeal to them in some way. Look at the thread about chow chow. That O.P. wanted one despite reading so many bad things about that breed. He didn't even know one in real life, and still wanted one. Or there was the thread about some inquiring about a Russian terrier of some sort. He saw one, found out that they are exotic and rare, and that's what triggered his desire for one.
I could see a woman in the city wanting a dog that looks like a pit bull or a rottie because she wants a pet and also thinks that walking a dog like that will make her safer in an urban environment. But unless she is a real dog person, her decision would be a poor one.
The other people that peeve me are those people into salt water fish tanks. I've known way too many people that got into that hobby because they thought the fish beautiful and exotic looking. Then months later, everything in their tank dies. What a waste of fish and live coral. Just leave those sea creatures be in their natural habitat!
[quote=miu;2392622]It seems to me that in the last thirty years, that pit bull owners prefer their dogs to have a more muscular build and a bigger "brick" like head. I've been doing a lot of research and several pit bull pages and sites had descriptions like this:
Quote:
The Pit Bull immediately strikes one as being a dog of power, passion, and undying willingness. The brick-like head, which is especially broad between the cheeks (to house the powerful jaws), is carried upon a thickly muscled, well-defined neck. The neck runs into a deep, thick, well-sprung chest. The American Pit Bull is a very muscular, stocky, yet agile dog which is extremely strong for his size. The ears are generally cropped, though this is optional. Docked tails are not accepted by the UKC or the [SIZE=3]ADBA[/SIZE]. The eyes are round, and any color is acceptable. The teeth should form a scissors bite. Its coat is made up of thick, short, shiny hair. All colors are admissible. The tail tapers to a point.
Yes there is a big problem in our breed of people changing the breed to be bigger, including wide chest and overly large head with jaws overly pronounced to create a beastly looking dog that is intimidating. Most the original dogs were not something to behold in looks nor are most of the ones bred to the classic and correct type today.
It is also funny that they quote the standard per the tail docking, but yet start out saying "brick like head". The head is to be wedged shape and I never seen a brick that looked like a wedge. It should also appear round when viewed from the front, again nothing like a brick. They say all colors are admissible. Too many flipping wannabe byb that don't know what they are talking about.
They should try to actually learn and comprehend the standards. I go to so many sites that say they breed for conformation and their dogs are hideous, they breed for color and size thats it.
Per the standard Head size is balanced in relation to the of the body, which doesn't mean a 28" head and that other BS they breed for.
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And quite honestly, these traits are not what I would ever want in a pet quality dog. I want devoted loving furballs of love where I am easily the alpha of my pack. I have no desire to own a working breed dog that needs a daily training and exercise workouts. There are many dog breeds that I feel since they were bred for a specific job that have no business living in a regular household. My dogs are not a fashion statement and I didn't pick them out for their looks or novelty.
I certainly agree with you there. Although Pit Bulls should be handler sensitive and have no problem with the human being the pack leader, they are a devoted breed BUT this works against them in the hands of some people. They abuse this power.
I think that if more people were honest like you the APBT and other breeds would not be facing so much problems. There are the ones you mentioned in the last part of your statement which want an overly crappy bred APBT for an image they are trying to portray. There are also the ones which want them just to want them, thinking its going to be the perfect pet simply because they like them. This is a big problem in many working breeds, people get the dogs of intentions of not having to put effort into them. Most of the Border Collies in rescue are because people wanted them to be house pets or left them in the backyard day and day out. It is quite ridiculous to think a dog bred for work is going to enjoy laying in a corner of the room 24/7. It is unfair and unwise for them to expect that of the dog. More people should research breeds before they get them. So many dogs are dumped because the owners picked the wrong breed for their lifestyle. Others are harming other animals or children. Just the same when they do ask for suggestions they get upset if you don't recommend the large, dominant or working breed that they wanted. The owners know they can't handle them but they expect everyone to agree it is the right breed for them.
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I think that you are up to the task of owning your pit bulls properly, but many owners pick out their dog because its looks appeal to them in some way. Look at the thread about chow chow. That O.P. wanted one despite reading so many bad things about that breed. He didn't even know one in real life, and still wanted one. Or there was the thread about some inquiring about a Russian terrier of some sort. He saw one, found out that they are exotic and rare, and that's what triggered his desire for one.
Again true! They wanted one because it was cute and fluffy I believe. Not a good reason to pick a dog. It isn't a stuffed animal or statue that will stand there and look pretty 24/7.
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I could see a woman in the city wanting a dog that looks like a pit bull or a rottie because she wants a pet and also thinks that walking a dog like that will make her safer in an urban environment. But unless she is a real dog person, her decision would be a poor one.
Again true! Even if they are only using the look or rep. as a deterrent and don't want an aggressive dog if they don't train or socialize that dog properly and don't know the breed traits its not going to work out the best, at least not likely. Again the dog isn't something they can just take around at there whim. Why don't more people realize dogs are living beings with needs and responsibilities!!!
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The other people that peeve me are those people into salt water fish tanks. I've known way too many people that got into that hobby because they thought the fish beautiful and exotic looking. Then months later, everything in their tank dies. What a waste of fish and live coral. Just leave those sea creatures be in their natural habitat!
Me too! DH gets more upset then me over the coral systems. So many people just get them because of the wow its pretty factor and then when they loose interest well you said a waste of life! The same with fish period, improper tank set up, feeding and filtration system. People don't put effort in the first place and certainly don't care when the novelty wears off. Reptiles is another huge peeve! People want lizards or snakes because they are "cool" and "exotic" but get PO'd when they need a certain sized tank and set up. They think thats just stupid it will fit in this one. They especially don't pay mind to proper diet, temperament or humidity levels, within a few months the poor animal dies. People who feed Iguanas iceberg lettuce and wonder why they die shortly. I hate it all. My Aunt fed her flying Squirells cornpops! Geez!
for those that own them, you undeniably love them and for those that don't you shrink in fear due to malicious ownership. never has a breed been more exploited since caesar's mastifs went rounds w/ lions. these breeds require lots and lots and lots and did i mention lots of exercise? it keeps the bad habits from forming and occupies their time w/ your attention.
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Last edited by christina0001; 01-21-2008 at 07:51 PM..
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As for the original point to this point, now that it's been horribly derailed, I'd like to see a photo of the dog (before the incident) as well to confirm the breed. I've seen too many labs and such labeled 'pit mix' by unknowing people.
Also, where's the owner in all this? I'm very picky about who I allow to watch my dogs. And I'd never allow someone to watch them and bring their dog over to my home. I've got incredibly social dogs. I've used my rotts in nursing homes, hospitals, schools, day care centers, etc., but it's just irresponsible to allow people to come to your home when you aren't there and bring their dog. My dogs would probably be fine, but it's still not a chance I'd take.
There's just too much about the story that reaks to me. Am I saying it didn't happen or that a 'pit mix' or 'pit bull' have never attacked anyone or anything before or that it's not possible? No. I am saying that in way too many cases it comes down to an irresponsible owner.
Last edited by christina0001; 01-21-2008 at 07:53 PM..
Reason: referenced post deleted
As for the original point to this point, now that it's been horribly derailed, I'd like to see a photo of the dog (before the incident) as well to confirm the breed. I've seen too many labs and such labeled 'pit mix' by unknowing people.
Also, where's the owner in all this? I'm very picky about who I allow to watch my dogs. And I'd never allow someone to watch them and bring their dog over to my home. I've got incredibly social dogs. I've used my rotts in nursing homes, hospitals, schools, day care centers, etc., but it's just irresponsible to allow people to come to your home when you aren't there and bring their dog. My dogs would probably be fine, but it's still not a chance I'd take.
There's just too much about the story that reaks to me. Am I saying it didn't happen or that a 'pit mix' or 'pit bull' have never attacked anyone or anything before or that it's not possible? No. I am saying that in way too many cases it comes down to an irresponsible owner.
Therein lies the rub. The fact that a woman in an urban area would want something like a pitbull to supposedly keep her safe and protect her is taking a huge risk, imo. Most dogs, unlike pitbulls, don't have the capacity to kill or permanently maim their victim, and, when a pitbull feels called upon to "defend" its turf or mistress/master or whoever, the damage that they do is almost incalculable, and could land the owner of the pitbull in huge trouble. Also, a woman who takes this kind of a dog for protection stands a pretty good chance of having such a dog turn on her, too.
Therein lies the rub. The fact that a woman in an urban area would want something like a pitbull to supposedly keep her safe and protect her is taking a huge risk, imo. Most dogs, unlike pitbulls, don't have the capacity to kill or permanently maim their victim, and, when a pitbull feels called upon to "defend" its turf or mistress/master or whoever, the damage that they do is almost incalculable, and could land the owner of the pitbull in huge trouble. Also, a woman who takes this kind of a dog for protection stands a pretty good chance of having such a dog turn on her, too.
Your breed information is incorrect. I'm just going off of research and real life experience. I'm a woman and I'm not at all risking my dog turning on me, although they are Pit Bulls. I've been around them since I was a small girl and they haven't turned on me or offered to do so in their entire lives until death. Of course I don't have them for protection thats why I got guardian breeds because I know my Pits can't be counted on for that. But if someone does want them for that I wouldn't think the dog is going to be likely to turn on them? Unless I'm missing something. If they are counting on a Pit to protect them/guard they are taking a huge risk, their breed ignorance will get them no where because they make horrible dogs for that. They are too friendly to not trust strangers so its likely the dog will fail when they need them. They should get a European Doberman or German Shepherd if they truly wish to have protection, perhaps a Belgian shepherd just the same. Even then they are taking the risk that the dog isn't going to do anything without training, they would have to put the time and money into making the dog a reliable protection dog. If they try their at home "training" they will likely botch it up and create a dog that is either dangerous or just worthless for any real threat.
Maybe the dog might bite them or their family in those situations also, usually innocent people get hurt when people want a self trained protection dog or guard dog. If they do it right they shouldn't have a problem, no matter the breed, Pit Bulls just are not a good breed for it, there is only a few lines that consistently do well at bite work but those dogs that have been able to do it have done anything but turn on their owners or harm someone.
Most large and even medium size breeds have the capacity and ability to maul and horribly disfigure people. Some even kill. They have done it in the past. A lot of people tend to focus on Pit Bulls and ignore or forget about the other breeds that have killed or severally mauled people. Not sure why.
She didn't say she has them for protection though, the poster you quoted, sounds more like therapy dogs and they are Rotts not even Pits.
I also don't know how it is incalculable. It is just like with any other breed, some will be severally mauled others will just have minor injuries. I wouldn't say a small bite requiring no medical attention is incalculable. The same with other breeds, within breeds not all bites/attacks are the same. One dog of a certain breed might do horrific damage (even kill) and another might just cause you to need a few stitches or a band aid. I was bit by a chow and I still have a small scar but it was nothing severe, but in that same city a lady was nearly killed by one and I'd only imagine had to have many more on going surgeries due to disfigurement and I can't imagine all the nerve trauma, maimed would pretty well describe it, so it depends on the situation, the dog and all that on how bad its going to be. I also think the lady attacked by the Lab that had to have a face transplant could be considered permanently maimed, without the transplant/plastic surgery she would still be disfigured and I doubt she is without scars even now. She did get a smaller dog after that while I understand her decision because of what happened it seems more and more society is moving that way. People attacked by "friendly" breeds like Labs and the like only want to own small dogs now, eventually are all dogs over 20lbs going to be banned? Even that lady who's son with bit up by their Lab said people with dogs over 20lbs (or something like that) should consider getting rid of them if they have kids, I think they had a Chi also and kept that dog since it was a toy dog.
This is hardly true. People are always saying pitbulls cannot be trained and its in their genes to attack and be mean. There are some pits that are bred to fight. Any dog can turn on people and their owners. This statement about "They serve no purpose except to be decoration for drug dealers and thugs", is very bias. You could say the same thing about All blacks listen to rap music. That would be bias as well. Drug Dealers and your so called thugs are not the only ones with Pit Bulls. Im sick of people giving these dogs such a bad reputation. Ive had pits all my life, and yes I hear tragic pit stories. However, Ive never come across a problem, and Im far from a drug dealer and thug.
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They threaten the breeds existence and my right to an APBT as a companion. Really makes it seem hard for responsible owners to totally combat BSL. It is so unfair, when they are banned those people who don't truly love the APBT will just move onto another breed. 
Too many flipping wannabe byb that don't know what they are talking about. 
adding to loving pits everywhere...
If they are counting on a Pit to protect them/guard they are taking a huge risk, their breed ignorance will get them no where because they make horrible dogs for that. They are too friendly to not trust strangers so its likely the dog will fail when they need them. They should get a European Doberman or German Shepherd if they truly wish to have protection, perhaps a Belgian shepherd just the same. Even then they are taking the risk that the dog isn't going to do anything without training, they would have to put the time and money into making the dog a reliable protection dog. If they try their at home "training" they will likely botch it up and create a dog that is either dangerous or just worthless for any real threat. 