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below is a bit more detailed story about my situation, but the short version is this, i am struggling with what to do about my family member and dog friend. should i try to find a new home for my 3 year old buddy, seattle? i don't want to put him down. he's such a great dog. i just fear that he will injure my other dog, or another dog at some point, as he has been acting out for the past year. most recently it seems he took the life of another dog (there were no humans around) but it is very fair to say that he was the dog at fault...
my name is lisa, i live in minneapolis. i have a male pit shephard mix, Kingston (70 lbs) that is 5 and a male pit named Seattle (45lbs) that is 3 years old. For a few years i took my time wanting to bring a dog into my life, and felt strongly about adopting an am staff, pit bull or pit mix. i wanted to rescue or adopt a dog that needed a home and also raise a friendly healthy companion that would smash the sad stereotype of the breed that the media portrays. i did a lot of research and really wanted a puppy. i watched pet rescue sites locally. i learned a lot about the breed. i spoke with trainers, hung out at dog parks, i really researched. i had a friend with two am staffs and spent time with them. all the while i waited for the right opportunity to bring a dog into my life. during a time i wasn't really looking, i fell upon an unwanted litter. a friend's neighbor had a dog that got out of the yard just before being fixed. She was a shep mix with some pit... i visited the litter at two weeks and fell in love with the chubbiest. that is where kingston came in. i took him at 6 weeks. He's a mama's boy.
when Kingston was 3 he had a play companion from the neighborhood that is a beautiful spotted classic female pit. her owners also became my friends and they later told me about the runt of their pup's litter being unwanted. he was the last left, very small and scruffy, the breeder didn't really want
another dog, - he was fawn colored, and had to fight for food, was pretty beat up. we talked about the fact that many unwanted pits were put down. the breeder had metioned bringing the dog to a shelter, which i knew would be bad... you know how it us. after some time passing with the home search still on for the pup (and my friends talking about moving to seattle)and much consideration i offered to take the runt in for a weekend (and call him seattle rather than 'chewy' - as he was dubbed because his brothers and sisters chewed him up) and see how he got along with kingston, who was a regular at the dog park and well socialized. the two hit it off. i now had a family of 3.
seattle was 9 months and unfixed when i got him. i got him fixed, all shots, microchipped, he filled out well on good kibble and marrow bones, his coat glistened... i immediately started bringing him to the dog park, which went awesome. i noticed food aggression (toward kingston) and took measures to avoid conflicts. i fed them in seperate rooms. things went great. seattle loved dog parks and playing with other dogs in our neighborhood. i work with kids at an inner city park, the dogs were also socialized around kids. which i loved. inner city youth seeing that dogs - particularly pit and pit mixes - aren't scary, if they are raised in a loving, caring way. if they are exercized and get socialization.
at 2 years seattle started acting out a bit. he became skiddish around kids, so i discontinued bringing him to soccer games and such, though he has never bit a person. at home he was testing his place in the pack. after consultation of fellow dog owners, dog trainers & investigation, following
a couple altercations (that were not fun) and attending to some
puncture wounds on kingston (who is very submissive) - it seemed seattle was trying to assert himself as dominant over kingston. having had kingston the longest, it was hard for me to do, but i followed advice i was given to let
both dogs know seattle was number two. i took measures to treat him that way. i fed him first. i put his collar on first, took it off first. gave him the better sleeping spot, gave his treats first. said hi to him first when i got home... things trainers told me, etc. i was shocked, but it did the trick.
at home.
also around this time he got a bit agressive at the dog park. usually toward male dogs that were of the pit or boxer variety. twice i had to pry him off a dog, which i know is not the thing to do, but he would release when he felt my hand in his mouth. he would not release on a verbal command. so, i learned i could not bring him to the dog park any longer. i had to find other means of exercising him (both my dogs accompany me on bicycle rides in warm weather) i did things so that i was a responsible dog owner and that kept other dogs safe.
over christmas i went on a road trip (to new orleans) with my girlfriend and my dogs were left in my conversion van for about 20 minutes with her two other dogs that we hang out with a lot, an 11 year old male collie named morrison and a female (10 years) husky named jasmine. we had not been leaving the dogs alone in the van without either myself or my girlfriend with them, because we didn't want them to get into our food (we brought a lot of food). and to avoid any spats. why we decided to go into that truck stop together and leave the dogs, i will never know. but i will regret it forever.
i got back to the van and found morrisson in the fetal position on the floor of the van breathing shallowly in a pool of blood. (seattle and kingston had a number of puncture wounds and scratches on them, especially seattle. he was soaked in blood, most of it not his. jasmine stayed out of it and was in the front seat.) there was food from a bag of bread scattered about the van. i was panicked and thought that maybe a lung was punctured. i covered morrisson in blankets and my girlfriend appeared who got on the phone... we brought morrisson to the emergency vet in mississippi (we were in arkansas just 4 hours from new orleans) to find that he had a severe brain injury, his front legs were paralized, the doctors didn't think he was strong enough for surgery. he had to be euthanized the next day, miles from home, the day before x.mas. morrisson was my girlfriend's best friend. she had him since he was a puppy. they were soul mates. she was crushed. i could tell you more about how hard it was to be supportive, to not know what exactly happened - knowing that dogs behave differently when humans are not around... i feel so terrible. i am so incredibly sorry that happened - but how to make a true amends?
i do and still will always speak out and advocate for pits, pit mixes. i adore them. i love my dogs. yet when the problems with seattle started (he had altercations with other dogs, as i mentioned) i had always told myself that if he were to injure a person (unprovoked) or killed another dog - i would put him down. now i am in that very position. i do not want to put my dog down. i am not scared of seattle. he has never been aggressive toward people. i am afraid for my second dog. for other dogs if there is a situation... i know if i keep him i must be EVEN MORE RESPONSIBLE than i ever was... kingston has suffered a few puncture wounds and a trip to
the vet for stitches at the hands of what i would say is food and
territorial aggression. i believe that the altercations at the dog park were also territorial aggression. when other people have taken care of my dogs when i am out of town, they brought seattle to the dog park (which i advised against) with no problem. so, i'm sure there's a bit of "the other end of the leash" thing going on... since i anticipate issues he senses my fear
perhaps... he is protective of me as his master.
this is a lot. i'm a tough person and have spent so much time talking and crying about this situation. about the loss of morrisson, at the hands of seattle... i originally decided not to put him down. he's my friend. he plays fetch until he lays down. he will drop the ball. he sits and lays down on command... he cuddles at night. he likes to be crated when i'm not home.
he's beautiful. i adore him.
i need help.
any advice? some of the advice i have gotten is that i would have to put him down if i were living in certain states. my local humane society told me that the screening process for pit bulls is rigorous and he would most definately show signs of dog aggression and not be pit up for adoption. i think he would fare well as an only dog, but i have no idea how to begin to try and place him somewhere safe. pit rescues locally can't help me. i don't want some pit-fighters to use him as "bait." as of yesterday this situation has severed my friendship with my girlfriend, morrison's mom. and she is the closest person in my life. it's kind of the icing on the cake, as we have been through a lot. i just knew that this situation would make it or break it for us. i know that she thinks i am a bad dog owner. she basically said that to me. that i knew seattle went after other dogs and kingston. however, she knew that too. she actually would take care of seattle and bring him to dog parks. now she wants nothing to do with him and definately is on the side of euthanization.
this is the first day of me using this site to communicate and research. i am a rookie at this, and i do hope i will get some good advice from dog lovers out there, on both sides of the situation.
one thing i do know is that i can't love the aggression out of him.
what a hard situation! I have 2 dogs; I wouldn't want to be in this situation with one of them.
However, what if Seattle were to hurt Kingston seriously? Or hurt a human? You would feel terrible knowing that you were aware of the problem but didn't stop the repetition of injury. I think it is also likely that you could be legally liable and have huge monetary damages levied against you because of Seattle's history.
Have you contacted trainers (if you mentioned this, I don't remember reading it specifically) who could take Seattle in hand and train the aggression out of him? Have you tried to contact Cesar Millan (the Dog Whisperer, who has had great luck with this problem)?
It is possible that someone might adopt him into a situation where he was the only dog. However, territorial aggression and alpha aggression don't go away without extensive re-training; I wonder if anyone would adopt him knowing that he has an aggressive history.
Please keep us posted on what you decide. I am sure that there will be many more qualified dog people who can give you excellent advice, and you will probably read of several similar problems and their solutions.
I'm sorry for the loss you suffered but at the same time very upset. I can't help but be angry when I hear of these stories.
Pit Bulls are not for everyone, if you can't be responsible then don't get one. I don't mean to sound harsh but every breed comes with cons and Pit Bulls are in a bad light right now so it can hurt their rep. I'd recommend if you can't bring yourself to live with and control a Pit Bull that you find an experienced owner to take him. It won't be someone you can find overnight but if you can find someone close enough to you. Of course you could just deal with him, you wanted this breed, putting a dog to sleep should be the last option only when a dog is very ill or has a dangerous temperament problem.
You said if he ever hurt someone unprovoked or killed another dog you would have him PTS. Sure if he harmed someone that is understandable, man biters should be culled no doubt. But if he killed another dog? You put him in a position to fail and he has to pay for it? You said you researched before you decided on a Pit. The top 2 rules of owning a Pit Bull are always never trust a Pit Bull not to fight and never leave a Pit Bull unsupervised with other dogs. You left him alone with several dogs and with food involved too knowing of the food aggressive. It is your fault something happened and he shouldn't have to die for that. Did you research and know full well what you were getting into? If so then putting him down when he displays a con isn't the right thing to do, you knew it was possible. Did you not put that much into the actual breed research itself, did you take him on impulse? If so he still doesn't deserve to die for your mistake in breed choice. I realize the situation of him being in the hands of a byb that didn't want him, that'd tug at anyones heart strings. But taking a dog really is a lifetime commitment.
You took him to the dog park, not something most Pit breeders will recommend you do. It is possible for Pits to be social with other dogs, but since they can be dog aggressive you must watch their body language and of course be cautious as they mature. It is your responsibility to not allow him to harm another dog. Taking him to a dog park is again setting him up to possibly get in a fight even if another dog starts it. Prevention can be the best way to keep your dog from being aggressive, not allowing them to get in a situation that will lead to trouble.
They can also have a high prey drive, that could be problematic. There are cons to every breed.
You also said around 2yrs he started acting up, which is when they have reach maturity. Also typical in Pits, dog aggression tends to develop as they mature, pups can be very friendly to other dogs but as they age the dog aggression develops. Sometimes younger then 2. The aggression is usually worse in same sex and also as you mentioned to the same breed over other breeds.
I'd recommend you find a trainer near you and talk to some experienced Pit owners. There is no reason to kill your dog. Don't allow him to harm your other dog of course, you have that responsibility to your other dog also. I'd also invest in a breaking stick in case you need it. You can try the "www.pitbullforum.com", because there are responsible and experience Pit owners there. They might be able to find help for your dog or help place him if you can't handle keeping him. Some could be close enough to you to recommend people they know in that area (trainers or private rescue). You should also check out Official Pit Bull Informational Site of Diane Jessup for info on the Pit Bull breed that might help you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nims
However, what if Seattle were to hurt Kingston seriously? Or hurt a human? You would feel terrible knowing that you were aware of the problem but didn't stop the repetition of injury. I think it is also likely that you could be legally liable and have huge monetary damages levied against you because of Seattle's history.
Dog aggression and human aggression are 2 different things. I did read where he became skittish, which is probably some temperament problem he has. Could lead to fear aggression but doesn't sound like, just sounds unsure around kids and such without being dangerous. So there isn't a problem that I read of him being human aggressive. So he doesn't have a history there. Pit Bulls should never be human aggressive but they can be dog aggressive. It can be a pain to train/control a dog like that but its something a Pit owner might possibly have to deal with. Owning Pits is a big responsibility and lots of work. There are many Pits which are terribly dog aggressive or have a high prey drive but would never hurt a human. Just comes with their breeding.
Lisa,
However, what if Seattle were to hurt Kingston seriously? Or hurt a human? Have you contacted trainers (if you mentioned this, I don't remember reading it specifically) who could take Seattle in hand and train the aggression out of him? Have you tried to contact Cesar Millan (the Dog Whisperer, who has had great luck with this problem)?
I wonder if anyone would adopt him knowing that he has an aggressive history.
Sincerely and sympathetically,
Nims
if seattle were to hurt kingston seriously, it would break my heart. he has NEVER been aggressive toward a human - with one exception. that is white males with beards, he barks at them when we are walking - so i avoid them. i believe that his original owner was a man with a beard. so i am careful with that. him becoming skiddish around kids, i avoid the situation now, and never is he unattended with children. he has a number of close friends that are kids of all ages.
i have spoke to a number of dog trainers. and clearly the mistake was mine in leaving him unattended in the van - which is much like a den, as we were sleeping there too.
i don't think anyone would adopt him, knowing his history. i really don't want to give him up, either. thanks for your reply.
I'm sorry for the loss you suffered but at the same time very upset. I can't help but be angry when I hear of these stories.
Pit Bulls are not for everyone, if you can't be responsible then don't get one. Of course you could just deal with him, you wanted this breed, putting a dog to sleep should be the last option only when a dog is very ill or has a dangerous temperament problem. Sure if he harmed someone that is understandable, man biters should be culled no doubt. But if he killed another dog? You put him in a position to fail and he has to pay for it? The top 2 rules of owning a Pit Bull are always never trust a Pit Bull not to fight and never leave a Pit Bull unsupervised with other dogs. You left him alone with several dogs and with food involved too knowing of the food aggressive. It is your fault something happened and he shouldn't have to die for that... taking a dog really is a lifetime commitment.
i appreciate your anger. i do. what's crazy about this pack of four dogs is that the only scuff they had in the past was the collie (morrisson) toward the pit-shep mix kingston, and that was around a bone. the last thing i thought would happen, is what did happen. i KNOW pits are not for everyone. i loved morrisson. and i certainly still love my girlfriend, who i am no longer with. ultimately, it's so incredibly true. i set him up to fail by leaving those dogs alone in the van uncrated. it's just so incredibly difficult to have my relationship ending because i told everyone close to me a couple weeks ago that i had decided i would not put him down. and the reason is just that. i left him in there. anything could have happened. my gf really believes seattle should be put down, and won't hear any side of my story. and what is my story? not to leave seattle alone with other dogs ever.
You also said around 2yrs he started acting up, which is when they have reach maturity. Also typical in Pits, dog aggression tends to develop as they mature, pups can be very friendly to other dogs but as they age the dog aggression develops. Sometimes younger then 2. The aggression is usually worse in same sex and also as you mentioned to the same breed over other breeds.
I'd recommend you find a trainer near you and talk to some experienced Pit owners. There is no reason to kill your dog. Don't allow him to harm your other dog of course, you have that responsibility to your other dog also. I'd also invest in a breaking stick in case you need it. You can try the "www.pitbullforum.com", because there are responsible and experience Pit owners there. They might be able to find help for your dog or help place him if you can't handle keeping him. Some could be close enough to you to recommend people they know in that area (trainers or private rescue). You should also check out Official Pit Bull Informational Site of Diane Jessup for info on the Pit Bull breed that might help you.
i did find a trainer locally as soon as seattle began to mature, yes i knew this is what was happeneing at 2, and took measures as instructed, which solved my problem at home. i also learned that i could no longer bring him to dog parks. there are many breeders and trainers that believe dog parks are safe for any breed. seattle was mostly interested in chasing the ball, and yes i did watch his body language and after a scuffle made the decision to not bring him to the dog park or to only go after hours when no one else was around. much of this tension, i honestly believe, was due to the way other PEOPLE in the park responded to the look of my two dogs (being misled by the media's portrayal of bully breeds). i have spoken with a number of responsible pit owners. i am very familiar with jessup and have read most of the books offered on her site. i researched this breed and chose a mix and a pit because i wanted to raise them well and yes, for life, as healthy companion dogs.
when i last spoke with my ex, i asked her if the tables were turned, and morrisson were covered in blood and kingston got the worst of it and had to be put down, would she put down morrisson. her answer was a quick no. and she went on about the pit bull's 'locking' jaws and that given seattle's history, i should have known better. here is what i agree with - it is the same thing you are stating. i should have known better. there is no reason for my family member, seattle, to die. and my response to her was that she needed to do more research on pit bulls because even jessup tells us that there are myths about the pit bulls in the media having jaws that are "unremarkable" when compared to other breeds.
thanks for the heads up on the pit bull forum page.
if seattle were to hurt kingston seriously, it would break my heart. he has NEVER been aggressive toward a human - with one exception. that is white males with beards, he barks at them when we are walking - so i avoid them. i believe that his original owner was a man with a beard. so i am careful with that. him becoming skiddish around kids, i avoid the situation now, and never is he unattended with children. he has a number of close friends that are kids of all ages.
i have spoke to a number of dog trainers. and clearly the mistake was mine in leaving him unattended in the van - which is much like a den, as we were sleeping there too.
i don't think anyone would adopt him, knowing his history. i really don't want to give him up, either. thanks for your reply.
An experienced Pit owner would likely adopt him, if one has the space. I mean a responsible experienced one. Not just someone thats owed a Pit that might want him for the wrong reasons, I know you wouldn't want that. If you have his full story/history then they will know what they are getting into and what precautions they have to take for him. I've had and placed dogs that fought, even one that did kill another dog. Its all about finding the proper owner for that dog, they should be totally aware of the history and they should be thoroughly screened. I can't always take them in as I have several dogs of my own but I try my hardest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lganser
i appreciate your anger. i do. what's crazy about this pack of four dogs is that the only scuff they had in the past was the collie (morrisson) toward the pit-shep mix kingston, and that was around a bone. the last thing i thought would happen, is what did happen. i KNOW pits are not for everyone. i loved morrisson. and i certainly still love my girlfriend, who i am no longer with. ultimately, it's so incredibly true. i set him up to fail by leaving those dogs alone in the van uncrated. it's just so incredibly difficult to have my relationship ending because i told everyone close to me a couple weeks ago that i had decided i would not put him down. and the reason is just that. i left him in there. anything could have happened. my gf really believes seattle should be put down, and won't hear any side of my story. and what is my story? not to leave seattle alone with other dogs ever.
That is the thing with Pits, its to expect it to happen. Even if the dogs always got along without a single bicker between them you must act like they don't. You must think or pretend that they will fight even if the won't, the fact is we can't know so we can't take the chance. I know its a hard lessoned learned with big losses.
I'm glad you didn't take offense, I just hate when these things happen because they are preventable. This just happened a few months ago with someone I know. We had warned them several times not to leave their 2 female Pits unsupervised together. He wouldn't listen and one killed the other. Of course he calls us right up after the fact. His cell phone was cutting out but he wanted to know if we knew anyone who wanted a blue female Pit. Since she killed the other his wife told him to get rid of her or shoot her. Both dogs had to pay for his poor choices. We couldn't take her at the time nor could we even reach him again. I knew of no one else to take her in anyway. As my friend was also full having taken in I think 4 dogs from one person, one of which had to be PTS because it was human aggressive. So I was upset, its not the first time something like this happened to people I knew.
I know it must be hard with your girlfriend, I can understand her being upset. Its very hard to deal with the death of a dog, when its by another dog its natural to want that dog out of the picture. If she better understood the breed and situation then maybe she wouldn't feel so harshly, although there would be hard feelings I'm sure. Perhaps she just needs to time to heal and come to terms with what happened. I wish you the best with getting back with her.
Lisa, I feel so badly for you...and for Seattle. You know, you did everything you were supposed to in terms of researching and waiting and making the good decisions all along. It's so unfortunate that good intentions/actions aren't enough. And yes, unfortunate that you made the ill-fated choice to leave them in the van together...I can highly empathize with your ex. I am in a position now where one of my three dogs is a Pit, and sure enough, at 3 years of age, she's recently started challenging my older female Standard--there have been two attacks, both ball-related, both in my presence. And really horrific to experience, let me tell you. We've taken precautions and now they don't get time together outdoors or with toys. After it happened the second time, and my Standard took the brunt of the attack, I wanted to find a new home for the Pit immediately. (Circumstances are such that she became part of my family when my partner and I got together, as she originally belonged to his daughter. I did not seek to adopt a Pit Bull, but she wriggled into my life and my heart.) After the shock of the attack wore off, the realization that the Poodle was injured but not seriously, and the reality of what sending her away actually means set in, I made a commitment to keep her and keep her separate. I digress a bit, sorry, the point is that I understand your girlfriend's response. Her beloved dog--her soulmate, as you say--was killed at Seattle's jaws. I guess I wonder how you can consider keeping him after that? For by choosing to do so, you are choosing not to keep her (gf). Yes, part of the onus is yours, but not all. You did not, after all, create his nature and you've done everything to shape against the aggression. It's a ****ty situation, that's for sure. I imagine many people will want to flame me for saying this, but I also feel like when there are so many dogs out there being put down at the shelters, or worse, so many good dogs in need of a home, *why* keep the problem dog? Yeah, I know, that question of course doesn't factor in love or history....and I know the answer is never easy. Sending good wishes. Please keep us posted with whatever you decide.
It sounds like, somehow, this dog may have gotten the impression that he was in control.
You mentioned that when Seattle was 2 years old, you were advised how to reinforce the hierarchy. It's possible that in the first 2 years - before you had this knowledge - you were inadvertently reinforcing Seattle's belief that he was the pack leader.
It doesn't sound like Seattle has descended into 2nd position, despite your efforts. I hate to say it's too late, but not every dog will relinquish their envisioned leadership.
How will Kingston react to Seattle sticking around? How will Kingston react to Seattle being gone?
When I was marrying my husband, we had been working with his 11yr old aggressive dog for more than a year. We tried medications, we tried behavior therapy, we tried alternative medicine (bach flower remedies), we exhausted all the options we could find. In our case, the dog (a Chow-mix) was not only dog-aggressive, but people-aggressive (a facial biter...yikes!).
Like you, my husband had 2 male dogs, only it was the 11yr old Chow-mix attacking the already much larger 6 month old Pit-mix pup.
I had to take a stand, and quite frankly, I was afraid to be alone with this dog - he had not yet broken skin on me, but he had sunk his teeth into me as a "warning" - never in my life before or since have I had a dog do this to me. My husband also had some concerns over what the younger male dog would become if he was subjected to this. So the dog was put down.
To this day, we both feel awful about it. My husband bears immense guilt at no knowing better. He relied on someone else's guidance (an old clueless girlfriend ) in raising the dog, and in hindsight, realizes how bad behavior was actually reinforced. Bringing in another male dog, in this scenario, was also the wrong choice.
I think you need to exhaust your possibilities for Seattle. Since he is not people-aggressive, another home might be a suitable option.
In the meantime, absolutely no unsupervised time together - crate Seattle or secure him in another room. Continue to feed in separate rooms. Run a tight ship with clear rules and boundaries.
All the best.....there are no easy answers to this one.
i truly appreciate all the feedback i have gotten on this page.
i am open to options at this point.
i miss my gf very much.
i feel true to stand by my decision not to put seattle down. i would love to place him in an only-dog situation i felt great about, and that would be a great loss to me, as i am very connected to him. i don't know how possible that really is.
for now i keep searching for advice and researching options. seattle always has been crated when i am not home.
one thing that stuck with me from above, and i had already thought about, is that there are many other dogs out there that are not dog aggressive that need a home. in time i could take in another dog that needed a home. i would need quite a bit of time, i just like the idea that i could be in that position again. for now i guess i am in a holding pattern of sorts. still looking at all the options. not wanting seattle PTS for sure. thanks everyone.
Last edited by lganser; 01-28-2008 at 11:36 AM..
Reason: incomplete thought, a master of type-os
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Seattle
Both dogs had to pay for his poor choices. We couldn't take her at the time nor could we even reach him again. I knew of no one else to take her in anyway. As my friend was also full having taken in I think 4 dogs from one person, one of which had to be PTS because it was human aggressive. So I was upset, its not the first time something like this happened to people I knew. 
) in raising the dog, and in hindsight, realizes how bad behavior was actually reinforced. Bringing in another male dog, in this scenario, was also the wrong choice.