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OP here. Thanks guys for all of the responses. I'm going to give an in depth response soon. Today was a mentally taxing day even without this unfortunate event. I do appreciate all of the input, though, seriously.
I did want to say that I didn't post to get confirmation of returning him. I posted because I wanted to make a clear, level headed decision rather than emotional/reactive one since it involves a dear family pet that is still loved by its family. My daughter was just as distraught over the prospect of him being returned as she was crying about the nip. It's definitely not something to be taken lightly by any means so I wanted to hear objective schools of thought. I think I did get some really good, understanding responses so far. We fully take responsibility (and regret) our lapse in judgment.
A tough situation indeed. I do think there is some value in pack order thinking (but maybe I'm showing my age here). My initial thought centered on the couch and who owns it; in a way both "claiming" space on the furniture which has value. After all, the humans get to sit on it all the time, now the dog gets to as well. The adults were not present. Who has preference now? Your children or this fairly new family member? As your dog is still pretty new to your home he's still figuring out where he "belongs". Your daughter and the dog were literally face to face, and there was probably a combination of things triggering a bite ("nip" is a euphemism....this was not play. The dog felt disturbed enough to physically attack after warning). If your daughter was facing the dog to pet him, he was probably getting stared at at close range, at eye level, which he could have interpreted as intimidating or challenging. So, you have a dog and a person both in a valued, desirable spot, and the person unintentionally meets the dog face to face, eye contact etc. Maybe, just maybe your daughter partially sat on the dog which hurt. He did warn her but she didn't know that or know what to do.
I wonder if it would help to teach the dog that humans sit on furniture. He won't be trying to claim it and won't feel that he must defend his seat from your children. Give him a bed next to the couch that is HIS. Have you watched videos of the tiny chihuahuas claiming a king size bed from the adults? What did the trainers usually suggest?
Last edited by Parnassia; 08-20-2017 at 02:20 AM..
I haven't looked at CD in weeks, and was wondering how your rescued old guy was doing; so sorry to see this thread.
Given his age and history (lived for 5yr in a vet's office and was used as a blood donor) I am hesitant to believe he can be trained out of his neuroses at this stage of his life.
That he nipped the child the FIRST and ONLY time they were left alone together makes me think perhaps he hasn't heretofore done so simply because an adult was present; your presence "intimidated" (wrong word, used loosely) him enough that he "tolerated" them and restrained from reacting to things they may've done that he didn't care for, but when alone with the child, his inhibition to react, vanished.
Some dogs simply react poorly to kids, even if the kid did nothing "wrong"; some dogs react to men, or men in hats, or tall men etc etc.
I've mentioned Onyx (pit-X my adult daugher has whom I took straight from a chain); her behavior is very different depending upon which adult is present; she is actually poorly trained (my daughter's fault) and was an angel at daycare EXCEPT when my daughter started working at the doggie daycare part time; she would become a monster and act out in all sorts of ways, like some spoiled brat when the overindulgent parent is present.
I am a dog NUT and hardcore advocate for the underdog and have rehabbed more than a handful of crazy dogs, and have a neurotic senior chi (from SPCA) at present; she is fearful of both peeps and dogs and I am sure would nip if she were not 4lb and easy to control; if someone who does not understand dogs had her, she would be an utter nuisance and she would not be good with children for sure; my lifestyle does not include contact with any children so she is well suited to be here.
If I had young kids I would not take on a neurotic dog, period. There are many, many dogs in rescue with even, easygoing temperaments; please, if you do return him, do not hesitate to take a rescue again. I see you are in TX; if you do go that route I recommend DallasDogRRR (Rescue/Rehab/Reform) as they do NOT adopt out until the dog has spent enough time in a foster that its quirks are well known.
I think your guy is better off in an all adult home, a very quiet household with a senior couple/senior or older single person. Honestly.
I stalk rescues' pages daily; I see many many posts for "perfect family dog, great with kids/cats/rabbits/horses" from Speranza Rescue (in PA and very careful with their adoptions) and the abovementioned DallasDogRRR, Rescue Dogs Rock NYC has many and GRFF (Ghetto Rescue Foundation) in CA, all have multiple well tempered dogs ages 5-10yr.
Last edited by VexedAndSolitary; 08-20-2017 at 05:26 AM..
Your dog bit your child in the face the first time you left them alone together, and now she is terrified of the animal. And yet you are seriously considering the possibility of NOT getting rid of the dog?
I am absolutely stunned. My jaw is still bouncing off the floor.
People, please give the OP a break. She was a very kind person to take this poor dog in. I don't think there were lines of people waiting to take him and there won't be now. Give her time to breathe and process. She knows it's a serious situation, she has voiced that over and over.
People, please give the OP a break. She was a very kind person to take this poor dog in. I don't think there were lines of people waiting to take him and there won't be now. Give her time to breathe and process. She knows it's a serious situation, she has voiced that over and over.
Totally agree.
Anyone who takes in a senior dog is someone I love for sure
My post was meant to help her do what's right and best for the dear old man dog and her child, and herself.
Also if she returns this fella and a more appropriate home takes him, she can save another that would be a better fit.
People, please give the OP a break. She was a very kind person to take this poor dog in. I don't think there were lines of people waiting to take him and there won't be now. Give her time to breathe and process. She knows it's a serious situation, she has voiced that over and over.
We arent blaming the op for what happened how was she to know that when left alone with the child the dog would get aggressive enough to bite the child,however the nature of the dog has been exposed,the child is now scared of the dog and the dog has proved itself to be untrustworthy, the dog is not a good fit to your family environment,time to rehome that dog.
Think of the legal ramifications had the dog bit a neighbors kid who happened to be over.
. . . i think it was more of a nip than an actual bite . . .
I kinda said a couple things before, but based on a number of other responses, I would like to stress some points.
1st - I believe what you say about the nip vs a bite. A lot of people do not realize that biting comes in two stages in a dog's instincts. There is an initial grab (1st stage) - and there is a penetrate the skin-tear-full force bite meant to damage (2nd stage, "kill"-bite). The dog uses the grab the same way you would use your hand to grab a child's arm to prevent it from going in the street. It can be forceful, but it is not intended to damage. This is why herding breeds do not go around willy-nilly killing the sheep they are supposed to herd. They don't have instinct for the 2nd stage of the bite. This is not something they have to learn not to do. They don't have the instinct. Some retrievers are the same - they have the grab part of the instinct - and not the 2nd stage ("kill-bite"). More commonly, most dog breeds have both instinct patterns. So one needs to take breed into account on this.
However, dogs also know very well how hard they are biting. Their mouths are like our hands. They learn to use them early, and with great sensitivity. All of which is why I am not worried, as others are, that your immediate response is not to return the dog. I think you've got this part down just fine.
Next - the thought about the dog "respecting" adults more than children. This is why I recommended getting the daughter to be "a source of good things". When you add in trained commands, this is an excellent process for getting a dog to obey a different person's commands. You need your daughter to be able to command the dog's loyalty as much as yours. And then she will feel more in control and confident as well.
Example on this: I have two herding dogs. They are as much one-person dogs as I have ever known. But then, typically I am the sole source of good things. I feed them, I run them, I work them. So, to change this, my wife takes over the feeding routine. She does the "go lay down" and "go eat". And now they pay more attention when she tells them something. It's easy, and it works. But it could be something else that the dog likes to do, and does with some discipline. Fetch, grooming, whatever. Although, with fetch, if the dog is rude and might grab - that would obviously not be a good thing. Tug-of-war play and rough-housing would also be bad. Although I doubt your senior dog still would do either one - most don't by that age.
Anyway, I am confident you will come up with a good answer for you, your daughters, and the dog.
We arent blaming the op for what happened how was she to know that when left alone with the child the dog would get aggressive enough to bite the child,however the nature of the dog has been exposed,the child is now scared of the dog and the dog has proved itself to be untrustworthy, the dog is not a good fit to your family environment,time to rehome that dog.
Think of the legal ramifications had the dog bit a neighbors kid who happened to be over.
This exactly ^^^^
I once tried to rehab a very other-dog aggressive/former fighter pit. Had I lived in a rural area, away from neighbors, I could've done it. As it was, I was in an upscale suburban -ish section at the time and could not walk her without her going insane if she saw another dog which was every time on every walk.
She was so strong I could barely hold her even with a Gentle Leader.
When she got away from me and went towards small terrier in its own yard (UNfenced) that was it; I was NOT in a situation to help her as she needed to be helped. I had to return her (kept her three weeks).
She was young enough that she MAY have been able to eventually be retrained BUT in the interim, unless I never walked her, she was a liability 3-4X per day when we left the house for a walk. My property was also unfenced (3 acres) so I couldn't just let her out. This 'hood had big houses on big lots and everyone had dogs and were snobs by and large; just having a pit nearby prob freaked those idiots out let alone a scarred aggressive one.
I have also posted on another thread of my failed attempt to help an ex-hunting beagle; my situation at that time was totally unsuitable.
Intent to help is one thing; ability/circumstance is another.
Not EXACTLY applicable to this OP, just an anecdote that I hope helps OP not feel bad if she cannot ultimately help THIS particular dog, but can certainly help another. There are SO MANY in need.
#adoptnevershop
Last edited by VexedAndSolitary; 08-20-2017 at 08:51 AM..
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